lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
neprimerimye said:
My main point was that your politics require a revolution which is not going to happen. However if the conditions arose where it would happen, I would participate.
Bye Bye Scotland
- Thread starter lewislewis
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My main point was that your politics require a revolution which is not going to happen. However if the conditions arose where it would happen, I would participate.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
lewislewis said:
Revolutions happen that is a matter of fact but not a revolutionary situation is not required in order to validate class struggle politics.
And while I agree with you that if a revolutionary situation were to arise in this country, which is highly unlikely in the short to medium term alas, you would indeed participate the question is on which side?
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
llantwit said:Ooh Nep - you can be really catty can't you?
Although blessed with good looks, charm and a brilliant intellect I confess that I have faults. One of them being my kind heartedness towards ideological opponents.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
niclas said:
Niclas versus Udo game, set and match to Niclas.
rhys gethin
New Member
Well, I do conclude that Neprimerimye is quite the silliest poster I have met here: a purist who will grow old and athritic waiting for the perfect revolutionary situation and the perfect working class to act within it. Till then he will do purist revolutionary work that nobody notices, I'd gather. In my time I have known a lot of people like him. Most of them are tories now, some of them are dead, but a few are puristically gaga, screaming abuse at anyone who speaks to them, especially their carers , and occasionally pissing themselves with great revolutionary purity. So, right - piss off, comrade, do!
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
rhys gethin said:
How terribly boring of you Rhys. Lacking any argument you resort to abuse. Frankly dear boy I pity you. Even though you are nothing more than a conservative pillow biter at heart.
rhys gethin
New Member
neprimerimye said:
And I haven't called you an idiot ONCE. abusive bugger I am! Thank you for your condolences, oh wise one. The fact is, the world is large, as is the Class, and lots of activities are going on in both, and most of us have various human interests, like the survival of particular cultures. Every word you have written is about NOT doing things. I noticed in the past, however, that English/English-grovelling comrades always had lots reasons for NOT doing Cymreig-type things (nationalism!), whereas doing English things was a clear indication of wide cultural interests. Please, before you leave us or go entirely gaga, tell us about three actual, practical things (i.e. not just abstract ones that objectively support Blair, the UK and capitalism) that we can do NOW, to bring revolution closer while engaging with the world of experience. Or is it like the movements of the planets, beyond our knowing? I think myself that you are not a marxist but a fatalist .
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Neppy is right to note that the Bolivarian revolution is underpinned by oil wealth - something that isn't true of Wales. We also shouldn't romanticise Venezuela. Despite the achievements of the Bolivarian revolution, over half the population still live in poverty.
But there is more fundamental point that Niclas and the other idolisers of Chavez miss.
What is driving the shift leftwards? What underpins the election of Chavez and Morales?
It is a massive upsurge of class struggle from below in those countries. When Chavez was first elected he would have probably headed down the Lula route of compromise with the IMF/World Bank, but after the attempted coup the people rose up to re-instate him, it has been this erruption of the poor and workers onto the political stage in Venezuela that has shifted Chavez to the left and which is driving the process. Indeed, in many ways while Chavez symbolises this struggle he is also in some ways an obstacle to further progress and taking further the revolutionary process. His government includes many right wing figures and a corrupt bureaucracy, increasingly he talks "anti-imperialist" in order to gloss over the class divisions within Venezuela.
What led to the election of Evo Morales? It was a reflection of the "June Days" in 2005, an unprecedented combative working class movement. Striking miners marching on the capital with sticks of dynamite saying "give us what we demand or we will blow the whole city up". As leading British marxist theoretician Chris Harman put it:
In fact, Evo Morales actually defused much of the popular rebellion away from a revolutionary situation into safe reformist channels.
The point is in Wales, the far left and labour movement are incredibly weak. An independent Wales wouldn't be driven by class struggle from below like in Latin America, the only thing that could prevent neoliberal compromise with the world system.
In fact, Rhys's embracing of nationalism actually reflects despair. The labour movement has experienced defeat after defeat for the last 20 years. Many people don't believe that left wing struggle from below can ever revive and therefore look for crumbs from capitalism's table. The same argument that we hear from Niclas and Rhys about Welsh independence we hear from Rhodri Morgan, that Welsh Labour is different from New Labour. Yes, Welsh Labour have delivered a few minor reforms but 1 in 3 children in Wales are below the poverty line and they can't really challenge neoliberalism in any effect way.
And let's not forget that Niclas is a member of Plaid, a party utterly wedded to neoliberalism. Plaid pose as Old Labour (in South Wales) but offer the same solutions to Wales's problems as New Labour albeit with a nationalist twist, if they ever got their grubby hands on power we would see the transformation of Wales into a low wage economy and the rapid ditching of any "socialist" policies that they put forward in opposition. Plaid see Welsh business as more progressive than foreign business, while wanting to slash corporation tax and open up the poorest areas of Wales to multinationals, reflecting Adam Price's belief that the solution to poverty is . . . exploitation.
It takes as it's model capitalist Ireland whose celtic tiger economy is built on massive tax breaks for millionaires and multinationals and huge indirect taxation on the poor, where even at the height of the boom one-third of children lived below the poverty line. Ireland where the government carries out all the same neoliberal attacks on workers as the Westminster government (remember the attempted "Bin tax").
New Labour and Plaid Cymru are two pigs in the same trough, two sides of the same coin.
By the way, have Plaid decided which party they are going to be in coalition with next year? Will it be the Neo-Liberal Democrats? (as Adam Price would like), the Tories? (as some of the old leadership are prepared to contemplate), or New Labour? (as your deputy leader wants)
But there is more fundamental point that Niclas and the other idolisers of Chavez miss.
What is driving the shift leftwards? What underpins the election of Chavez and Morales?
It is a massive upsurge of class struggle from below in those countries. When Chavez was first elected he would have probably headed down the Lula route of compromise with the IMF/World Bank, but after the attempted coup the people rose up to re-instate him, it has been this erruption of the poor and workers onto the political stage in Venezuela that has shifted Chavez to the left and which is driving the process. Indeed, in many ways while Chavez symbolises this struggle he is also in some ways an obstacle to further progress and taking further the revolutionary process. His government includes many right wing figures and a corrupt bureaucracy, increasingly he talks "anti-imperialist" in order to gloss over the class divisions within Venezuela.
What led to the election of Evo Morales? It was a reflection of the "June Days" in 2005, an unprecedented combative working class movement. Striking miners marching on the capital with sticks of dynamite saying "give us what we demand or we will blow the whole city up". As leading British marxist theoretician Chris Harman put it:
Chris Harman said:
In fact, Evo Morales actually defused much of the popular rebellion away from a revolutionary situation into safe reformist channels.
The point is in Wales, the far left and labour movement are incredibly weak. An independent Wales wouldn't be driven by class struggle from below like in Latin America, the only thing that could prevent neoliberal compromise with the world system.
In fact, Rhys's embracing of nationalism actually reflects despair. The labour movement has experienced defeat after defeat for the last 20 years. Many people don't believe that left wing struggle from below can ever revive and therefore look for crumbs from capitalism's table. The same argument that we hear from Niclas and Rhys about Welsh independence we hear from Rhodri Morgan, that Welsh Labour is different from New Labour. Yes, Welsh Labour have delivered a few minor reforms but 1 in 3 children in Wales are below the poverty line and they can't really challenge neoliberalism in any effect way.
And let's not forget that Niclas is a member of Plaid, a party utterly wedded to neoliberalism. Plaid pose as Old Labour (in South Wales) but offer the same solutions to Wales's problems as New Labour albeit with a nationalist twist, if they ever got their grubby hands on power we would see the transformation of Wales into a low wage economy and the rapid ditching of any "socialist" policies that they put forward in opposition. Plaid see Welsh business as more progressive than foreign business, while wanting to slash corporation tax and open up the poorest areas of Wales to multinationals, reflecting Adam Price's belief that the solution to poverty is . . . exploitation.
It takes as it's model capitalist Ireland whose celtic tiger economy is built on massive tax breaks for millionaires and multinationals and huge indirect taxation on the poor, where even at the height of the boom one-third of children lived below the poverty line. Ireland where the government carries out all the same neoliberal attacks on workers as the Westminster government (remember the attempted "Bin tax").
New Labour and Plaid Cymru are two pigs in the same trough, two sides of the same coin.
By the way, have Plaid decided which party they are going to be in coalition with next year? Will it be the Neo-Liberal Democrats? (as Adam Price would like), the Tories? (as some of the old leadership are prepared to contemplate), or New Labour? (as your deputy leader wants)
That's very sophisticated.rhys gethin
New Member
Udo Erasmus said:
No - I had this argument with various comrades years since. I don't think any of the three is incredibly weak, but the second two are currently deeply confused and lacking any workable political expression. That's why, being interested in the culture of oppressed groups and my own history, I choose to work for the moment in terms of the 'national' struggle - which obviously has its own limitations. But I have yet to meet any of those famous capitalists who control it: it puts forward as left a position as is acceptable within current political discourse. I (and many others) have more to say when it is possible to say it effectively.
Anything that opposes the current historical re-enactment boredom from the left is worth working with. The SWP does useful work in introducing English people to Marxism, but it is too chauvinist for me just now. When the Struggle hots up again, it will change - as will all these various organisations. I never despair, me.
Udo Erasmus said:
I don't think I was idolising when I said:
Niclas said:
Venezuela is in a fascinating situation of dual power and the balance of class forces is very delicate. I don't know enough about the situation on the ground (and neither does anyone outside Venezuela I'd guess) to say what will happen. I think it's arrogant for us to dictate the speed at which the Venezuelan revolution should proceed (not that that's stopped the Brit left in the past).
How Chavez deals with the powerful bourgeoisie, the middle class, the media and (no doubt) US involvement will be interesting. Maybe he's talking left and will disappoint us but, as Udo correctly says, he's moving left as a result of grassroots pressure.
In effect he's probably moving as fast as the class struggle will allow - maybe it's too slow, maybe it's too fast. I doubt anyone gets it right.
Udo quotes a "leading British marxist theoretician" (aka an old SWP veteran)with a third-hand report on Bolivia. Maybe Evo Morales has "defused much of the popular rebellion away from a revolutionary situation into safe reformist channels" or maybe he too is biding his time. The Bolsheviks took part in the Duma before the October revolution and I don't see the SWP denouncing them as reformists, although again circumstances are very different.
UDO said:
Who says - are you a psychic as well as a world expert on Latin America now?
Breaking up the British State on a progressive internationalist basis would be a boost for those opposed to neo-liberalism and imperialism. One of Udo's leading SWP colleagues in Scotland - Iain Davidson - agrees. In fact the SWP in Scotland is in a party (Solidarity) that explicitly supports an independent socialist Scotland.
Davidson is quoted in this week's Socialist Worker as saying: “Socialists support Scots being able to choose whether or not they want to be part of Britain (the ‘right of self-determination’).”
He goes on to say it “would effectively be a judgement on Britain’s role in the new world order, and New Labour’s record more generally”. For that reason, “there would be a strong case for refusing to vote for the continued existence of the British state.”
So, does the SWP speak with forked tongue on national liberation?
Udo, when you've got your line sorted out with the central committee, please get back to us.
rhys gethin
New Member
neprimerimye - You sometimes make evidently sound points, as, for instance, that the State itself does not exploit workers. You whole tone, your offensiveness and so on, though, prevent anyone from listening, I think. Like many of my old now-tory comrades you are, alas, not wanting to convince but to build up your own ego, apparently. Well, well - that's capitalism. But Lenin said: 'Patiently explain', and I think you ought to put that up on your wall as a sampler for your revolutionary needlework. The majority of people tend to think, most of the time, about other matters than the finer doctrinal points, and tend to act in all sorts of ways that reflect their class interest in a most muddled, human kind of way. People like Cliff could understand that, and discuss it as human beings discuss things - he didn't need to prove how clever he was, he being so evidently clever. I think you might learn by that.
Udo Erasmus said:
I joined Plaid a year ago because I believe it's the best vehicle we have for achieving an independent socialist Wales.
But I won't defend policies slavishly. I disagree with the cut in Corporation Tax for the reasons stated above although Udo can't really have it both ways and say Plaid favours Welsh business AND wants to open up the West and the Valleys to multinationals.
I understand the proposal to cut business rates if it's to ensure that small local enterprises - hairdressers, one-man businesses, etc - stay in business in areas that are in real economic meltdown at the moment. I don't think a socialist society has to nationalise or take under workers' control such one-man businesses.
And, in the here and now, we need practical solutions within capitalism as well as a long-term goal of replacing capitalism, otherwise we're reduced to sniping from the sidelines. That's why I support Plaid's housing policy that will build more council housing, help first-time buyers and start break the freemarket that distorts the housing market. Not in itself socialist but a step in the right direction.
On the issue of the Irish Republic. Nobody in Plaid is arguing that the Irish experience of increased inequality, poor public services and an overheating housing market is one to copy. But there's no doubt that the Irish govt used Objective One money in a more positive way than New Labour has - to develop educational and transport infrastructure. That, I think, is the point of raising the Irish experience - better education and transport are a tangible result that you cannot point to in Wales after 6 years of Obj One money. That's because the irish govt took a strategic decision that the Labour Assembly govt couldn't do because it's tied to London and we don't have the political power to think independently.
Udo tries to pin the Irish govt's neo-liberal attacks on workers on Plaid - it's just empty smears. Does Plaid have a bin tax policy? No. Does Plaid have plans to attack workers? No. Does it plan to offer tax breaks to millionaires? No.
Plaid is far from perfect but for me it's the only credible political alternative for the Welsh left. And I know the Brit left won't be joining - which is a tremendous relief after the experience of the WSA et al.
ICB said:
Research has shown support for devolution and indeed increased devolution has grown dramatically in Wales since 1997,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4759946.stm
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...objectid=17473786&siteid=50082-name_page.html
and it must be remembered the National Assembly is still a very young institution - given time it will work effectively, provided it gets full legislative and tax varying powers. At the moment it is trying to do the job with one arm tied behind its back - Alderney and the Isle of Man have more powers than Wales.
The bottom line is Westminster has failed miserably to govern Wales effectively for hundreds of years, an independent Welsh government would be far better placed to look after Welsh interests at home and abroad.
IMHO Scotland will be independent by 2020 and Wales will follow soon after.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
rhys gethin said:
Rhys you use so many words and say so little. Dunno about you but as far as i'm concerned tyour Welsh culture is just a pale imitation of English culture anyhow. Fact is son that national cutures are dying and only backward looking fools look to preserve what is now an anachronism.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
rhys gethin said:
Yawn.
interesting to see niclas quoting from a recent socialist worker article on scotland - here is the link if others want to read it
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10252
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10252
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
niclas said:I joined Plaid a year ago because I believe it's the best vehicle we have for achieving an independent socialist Wales.
<snip>
Plaid is far from perfect but for me it's the only credible political alternative for the Welsh left. And I know the Brit left won't be joining - which is a tremendous relief after the experience of the WSA et al.
Plaid does not have a policy for an independent Wales in the least. In fact that pro-capitalist party is in favour or preserving the rule of capital and is also in favour of remaining within multi-national imperialist institutions such as the EU. They aren't even real nationalists for pitys sake. As fr their pretensions to socialism they are a peurile attempt to win votes on the basis of appealing to the memory of the now bankrupt social democratic policies which labour onced pimped for.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
niclas said:And if Plaid was to announce it was pulling out of the EU, it would presumably be "narrowly nationalist". Ya just can't win.
If Plaid were to announce that it was for withdrawal from the EU such a policy would be akin to many others it has adopted fr window dressing. That is to say of no importance at all other than as a sop to naive left liberals masquerading as socialists.
Although i conceded it is true that such a declaration on the part of palid would be denounced as narrow nationalism just as similar declarations by Labour 'Lefts', individuals such as Wedgewood Benn come to mind, are denounced for their narrow nationalism and defence of the British state.
But its not just the EU that Plaid favours membership of is it? After this supposed 'socialist' party is also in favour of remaining in the UInited Nations the latter day den of thieves.
I think that would depend on what basis <and it wouldn't necesarily mean pulling out of euro elections either>. How about raising some of the slogans to have come out of the ESF like "no to a bosses europe, yes to a people's europe" <a bit popular frontist some would say - but heading in vaguely the right direction>? That would take a leap of the imagination <or probably a different organisation>. This would mean abandoning the 'Wales in Europe' strategy which has always baffled me - why campaign for a Welsh parliament only to secede power to Brussels?niclas said:And if Plaid was to announce it was pulling out of the EU, it would presumably be "narrowly nationalist". Ya just can't win.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
nwnm said:
Such a policy would be populist not Popular Frontist which our semi-literate chum really ought to know. But given that his dying sect is submerged in the populist monstrosity that is Respect this minor error on his part is easily understood.
More annoying is his silly assumption that the adoption of a populist slogan somehow leads in the right direction. Surely no pro-capitalist direction is correct from a working class perspective?
And in that last line you mean cede not secede dear boy.
Dai Sheep said:
My personal research amongst those dealing with the NAW and WAG on a regular basis shows the direct opposite. There are many areas where Wales lags increasingly behind England due to sheer bloody-mindedness about learning and benefitting from work done "over there". Granted there are some examples in reverse but those lessons tend to be learned quicker.
More likely in Brittany according to the ESRC.
There's also no real independent review or meta-research to substantiate your view...
source
The 2003 elections were hardly a ringing endorsement of devolution or Plaid given the overall results and the turnaround in the Rhondda.
Wyn Jones & Roger Scully, Department of International Politics, University of Wales Aberystwyth
As they say all a bit early days to know where it's heading, we'll see what next year's elections turn up. Personally I have very little faith in politicians of any creed or colour and no strong views of my own on which way it "should" go as a matter of principle or ideology, just a general frustration with what I have to live with at work when comparing with English equivalents.
Karac
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Mamau
Typical-"Ive got a nice house in the Welsh borders" reactionICB said:Personally I have very little faith in politicians of any creed or colour and no strong views of my own on which way it "should" go as a matter of principle or ideology, just a general frustration with what I have to live with at work when comparing with English equivalents.
Karac said:Typical-"Ive got a nice house in the Welsh borders" reaction
Typical, "I work in Welsh Local Government" reaction actually*, the house is a very ordinary victorian terraced 3-bed originally built for railway workers.
(*as shared by colleagues in Gwynedd, Ceridigion, RCT, Merthyr, etc.)
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Wales is already part of the EU indirectly, the EU would be losing territory if Wales became independent and decided to remain outside it. The amount of assistance we've had coming from Europe has for the past 3 years been greater than the amount of assistance Wales gets from London. If the EU is willing to help rejuvenate Wales and London isn't, then I'd say go with the EU. We can always vote to leave, join, or determine our own relationship with Europe. As part of the UK, we are not allowed to do that.
