Bye Bye Scotland

[Udo Erasmus]

Independence within Europe for Scotland and Wales, the reunification of Ireland; and then England can join the USA as the 51st State. Sorted.

So Rhodri Morgan as Prime Minister?

Why assume that an independent Wales would not participate in the war on terror - albeit on a smaller scale? Across the water, "neutral" Ireland allows Shannon Airport to be used to send planes to bomb Iraqis and Afghanis. Given that none of the 4 main parties in Wales would stand up to the pressures of the World system to conform to neo-liberalism (social democratic governments to the left of Welsh Labour and Plaid have buckled) it is more than likely that their would be some participation of an independent Wales in imperialism. Just as the most left wing British government the 1945 Labour Party refused to grant independence to a single African colony, used troops to break strikes etc. so either a New Labour or Plaid government in an independent Wales wouldn't stand up to the capitalist power structure.

Having said that, seeing Brown, Blair, John Reid et al denouncing independence is enough to make anyone warm to nationalism.

It's up to the majority of Welsh people to democratically decide what constitutional arrangements they prefer, but personally - I think at best - independence would bring extremely minor improvements to the lifes of most people. Independence would also be slightly more democratic than being part of the British state, but given that in all capitalist states real power lies with powerful corporate interests and elites - something that would hold true in either scenario, it would be a very minor improvement:

Here's the new boss . . .
. . . Same as the old boss!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Scotland should have gone independent 20yrs ago, while the oil bonanza could still have being used to reinvigorate the economy, and replace English subsidies. Now there's just the oil dregs left, and the European Union budget is straining to subsidize or the East European econonmies, and their restructuring.

Not sure where the money would come from to fill that gap.

Personally, speaking as an Englishman, I'd have the decency to retain the subsidies for another 20yrs after independence, to make up for all that Scottish oil we nicked, but most English are just penny pinchers blind to their exploitative recent (and distant) histories.

theoretically the scottish could switch to the euro and claim some sort of european subsidy that way ...

 

[niclas]

So Rhodri Morgan as Prime Minister?

Why assume that an independent Wales would not participate in the war on terror - albeit on a smaller scale? Across the water, "neutral" Ireland allows Shannon Airport to be used to send planes to bomb Iraqis and Afghanis. Given that none of the 4 main parties in Wales would stand up to the pressures of the World system to conform to neo-liberalism (social democratic governments to the left of Welsh Labour and Plaid have buckled) it is more than likely that their would be some participation of an independent Wales in imperialism. Just as the most left wing British government the 1945 Labour Party refused to grant independence to a single African colony, used troops to break strikes etc. so either a New Labour or Plaid government in an independent Wales wouldn't stand up to the capitalist power structure.

It's not "neutral Ireland" that allows US warplanes to use Shannon, it's a right-wing free-market government.

Even so, that's an improvement on sending troops (as the UK govt does) as part of some US-UK crusade in the Middle East.

So there's one marked improvement for a start.

Counterposing Labour's failures in 45-51 to what a future independent (socialist) Wales might do isn't really getting us anywhere.

As for Rhodri being prime minister, well he's retiring in 2009. I honestly don't think we'll have the revolution sorted by then...

 

[lewislewis]

I think if we got the current people in Plaid into power, there wouldn't be any question of supporting imperialism. Wales is a victim of imperialism.

Of course, an independent Wales might elect a complete bunch of retards, but at least they'll be more accessible and accountable.

 

[niclas]

Of course, an independent Wales might elect a complete bunch of retards, but at least they'll be more accessible and accountable.

"They may be retards but at least they're our retards"

Breaking free of the empire will hopefully allow us to introduce some accountability, as in the right to recall, to our elected delegates in the People's Assembly.

 

[neprimerimye]

Breaking free of the empire will hopefully allow us to introduce some accountability, as in the right to recall, to our elected delegates in the People's Assembly.

I'm unable to make up my mind. Are you nashies thick as shit or just incredibly naive? Or both?

Any genuinely progressive independent state in Wales would be crushed within weeks byy imperialism. And the joke is they really wouldn't need to do much other than institute sanctions against Wales.

Either an independent Wales seeks to reach out to other countries and form a federal body with them, merging their economies and defence at very least, or you die. Fact is that a fully independent state and society cannot be achieved in the imperialist epoch.

 

[rhys gethin]

I'm unable to make up my mind. Are you nashies thick as shit or just incredibly naive? Or both?

Any genuinely progressive independent state in Wales would be crushed within weeks byy imperialism. And the joke is they really wouldn't need to do much other than institute sanctions against Wales.

Either an independent Wales seeks to reach out to other countries and form a federal body with them, merging their economies and defence at very least, or you die. Fact is that a fully independent state and society cannot be achieved in the imperialist epoch.

Too either-or-y. Things can shift by stages, as in South America. Naive to suppose Cymru is suddenly going to become the Socialist Republic of Heaven, but equally naive to think nothing can be done at all. That is the common currency of discussion amongst those who've given up, here and elsewhere. Let's say it again: Marx helped organise the Soho waiters. Any genuinely revolutionary waiters' union in Soho would have been crushed within days! But Marx helped organize the Soho waiters anyway.

 

[neprimerimye]

Too either-or-y. Things can shift by stages, as in South America. Naive to suppose Cymru is suddenly going to become the Socialist Republic of Heaven, but equally naive to think nothing can be done at all. That is the common currency of discussion amongst those who've given up, here and elsewhere. Let's say it again: Marx helped organise the Soho waiters. Any genuinely revolutionary waiters' union in Soho would have been crushed within days! But Marx helped organize the Soho waiters anyway.

What utter idiocy. Although I do give you full marks for the chutzpah of using Marx the international revolutionary to justify your national reformist schema.

The truth is that if a left wing government were to take power in a newly independent Welsh state, something I regard as undesirebale from a communist point of view, that government would have aburning need to deliver real reforms that improved the standard of living for workers in this country. Which cannot be done by small incremental steps but almost by definition requires a toal break with neo-liberalism. In which case imperialism will crush you.

On the other hand what could happen if the electorate of this country were follish ebnough to vote for seperation from our fellow workers in the rest of Britain is that a left talking Plaid Cymru government would adminster the country for the benfit of the international bourgoisie. Just as left talking populists do in certain Latin American countries today. Although they are at least attempting to renegotate the terms of their relations to imperialism which in the case of the currently most successful, Venezuala, is based on the possession of oil reserves. A precondition which the economy of this country cannot replicate.

 

[rhys gethin]

What utter idiocy. Although I do give you full marks for the chutzpah of using Marx the international revolutionary to justify your national reformist schema.

The truth is that if a left wing government were to take power in a newly independent Welsh state, something I regard as undesirebale from a communist point of view, that government would have aburning need to deliver real reforms that improved the standard of living for workers in this country. Which cannot be done by small incremental steps but almost by definition requires a toal break with neo-liberalism. In which case imperialism will crush you.

On the other hand what could happen if the electorate of this country were follish ebnough to vote for seperation from our fellow workers in the rest of Britain is that a left talking Plaid Cymru government would adminster the country for the benfit of the international bourgoisie. Just as left talking populists do in certain Latin American countries today. Although they are at least attempting to renegotate the terms of their relations to imperialism which in the case of the currently most successful, Venezuala, is based on the possession of oil reserves. A precondition which the economy of this country cannot replicate.

And so, Brilliance, we settle under Bliar and his successors and wait for somebody else to make the world revolution for us, do we? Because that is your choice, let's face it. You are just making talk. A real revolutionary puts forward practical alternatives to a policy, whereas all you do is find reasons for NOT doing things, like any other reactionary yes-man. To learn, you DO things, and make mistakes. It is extremely easy to be a totally inactive purist, I think: met lots of 'em in my time, never saw 'em do anything useful ever, though they did tend, fair play, to GET ON.

 

[neprimerimye]

And so, Brilliance, we settle under Bliar and his successors and wait for somebody else to make the world revolution for us, do we? Because that is your choice, let's face it. You are just making talk. A real revolutionary puts forward practical alternatives to a policy, whereas all you do is find reasons for NOT doing things, like any other reactionary yes-man. To learn, you DO things, and make mistakes. It is extremely easy to be a totally inactive purist, I think: met lots of 'em in my time, never saw 'em do anything useful ever, though they did tend, fair play, to GET ON.

Yes Rhys my post was 'just talk' this is a discussion list you clown that's the point of being here.

There are two points that come from your rather peurile reply.

!/ You seem unable to construct an argument against the scenario I outlined.

2/ You use the word revolutionary a lot but if examined you are in favour of a reformist road, not to socialism, but to a national state.

In the meantime I would suggest that the road Marx argued for that, that of organising workers on the basis of a revolutionary struggle againt international capital, retains all its validty today.

 

[rhys gethin]

Yes Rhys my post was 'just talk' this is a discussion list you clown that's the point of being here.

There are two points that come from your rather peurile reply.

!/ You seem unable to construct an argument against the scenario I outlined.

2/ You use the word revolutionary a lot but if examined you are in favour of a reformist road, not to socialism, but to a national state.

In the meantime I would suggest that the road Marx argued for that, that of organising workers on the basis of a revolutionary struggle againt international capital, retains all its validty today.

No, I'm not for reformism but for action, because people learn by that. The 1910 action in Ton-y-pandy was clearly revolutionary, but it grew out of things that were happening in chapels as well as things that were happening in pits and in Parliament. You seem to be in favour of inaction, and your 'scenario' is melodramatic, since you ask. Any group that opposes the capitalist state is important, as we see if we examine the history of the Spanish Republic. As Tony Cliff used to tell us, the one group the capitalists must take into account was the IRA.

Your last paragraph is fine. What are you currently doing to bring it about?

 

[neprimerimye]

No, I'm not for reformism but for action, because people learn by that. The 1910 action in Ton-y-pandy was clearly revolutionary, but it grew out of things that were happening in chapels as well as things that were happening in pits and in Parliament. You seem to be in favour of inaction, and your 'scenario' is melodramatic, since you ask. Any group that opposes the capitalist state is important, as we see if we examine the history of the Spanish Republic. As Tony Cliff used to tell us, the one group the capitalists must take into account was the IRA.

Your last paragraph is fine. What are you currently doing to bring it about?

You are for 'action'. So too are the fascists. But wehat kind of action and with what purpose?

The claim that my scenario is melodramatic does not address the problems I raised. the fact is that either such a scenario would come about, which i believe more or less impossible, or that an independent Welsh state will play the capitalist game of exploiting the workers.

Thus far all you have done is talk of is an independent Welsh state that you quite clearly do not envisage breaking with capital in any way. In other words your aim is a bourgeois Wales that will have to compete in a globalised world economy. That is to say your program if achieved will not in any way provide substantial benefits for workers in Wales.

As for your comment about the Spainish republic it is too opaque to convey any meaning to me. And Cliff came out with more than a little nonsense over his many years. But if his remark, for which I would like to see a citation, has any meaning it is that the only way to command attention is from a position of strength.

Answer your own question first and then I may play your silly game.

 

[Brockway]

You always crack me up Nep.

Don't suppose you know anything about the White Panthers in Cardiff circa 1972 do you?

 

[neprimerimye]

You always crack me up Nep.

Don't suppose you know anything about the White Panthers in Cardiff circa 1972 do you?

And your inability to construct a coherent argument always amuses me dear boy.

And the answer is no. I do know of the original WPP which became the Rainbow Peoples Party and the later unconnected WPP that was based in the Bay Area in the 1980's.

 

[rhys gethin]

You are for 'action'. So too are the fascists. But wehat kind of action and with what purpose?

The claim that my scenario is melodramatic does not address the problems I raised. the fact is that either such a scenario would come about, which i believe more or less impossible, or that an independent Welsh state will play the capitalist game of exploiting the workers.

Thus far all you have done is talk of is an independent Welsh state that you quite clearly do not envisage breaking with capital in any way. In other words your aim is a bourgeois Wales that will have to compete in a globalised world economy. That is to say your program if achieved will not in any way provide substantial benefits for workers in Wales.

As for your comment about the Spainish republic it is too opaque to convey any meaning to me. And Cliff came out with more than a little nonsense over his many years. But if his remark, for which I would like to see a citation, has any meaning it is that the only way to command attention is from a position of strength.

Answer your own question first and then I may play your silly game.

All sorts of people are in favour of action - except you, it seems. That is a silly verbal quibble you're at there. It depends whether the action weakens capitalism, obviously.

Cymru as a State within capitalism will undoubtedly exploit workers - but considerably less confidently than the UK you seem to favour.

The push for autonomy in Catalunya and Euskadi had powerful effects in weakening the pro-capitalist regime in Spain and in keeping the Republic going.

I have said nothing whatever about 'an independent Welsh state' in this discussion. 'Welsh', for one thing, is not a word I ever use by choice.

Cliff was pointing out that, however foolish the policy of the IRA, the authorities had to take account of it. He said it to me, since you ask. If you don't believe me I shall doubtless scream in rage and grief all night!

I have done quite a bit in my time, and continue to do so, but my intention was not to have a boasting-competition but to push you into thinking about the use to anyone of your abusive do-nothingism. Do you think the Class is entering a revolutionary phase just now perhaps? Stop being silly and get to work.

 

[neprimerimye]

All sorts of people are in favour of action - except you, it seems. That is a silly verbal quibble you're at there. It depends whether the action weakens capitalism, obviously.

Cymru as a State within capitalism will undoubtedly exploit workers - but considerably less confidently than the UK you seem to favour.

The push for autonomy in Catalunya and Euskadi had powerful effects in weakening the pro-capitalist regime in Spain and in keeping the Republic going.

I have said nothing whatever about 'an independent Welsh state' in this discussion. 'Welsh', for one thing, is not a word I ever use by choice.

Cliff was pointing out that, however foolish the policy of the IRA, the authorities had to take account of it. He said it to me, since you ask. If you don't believe me I shall doubtless scream in rage and grief all night!

I have done quite a bit in my time, and continue to do so, but my intention was not to have a boasting-competition but to push you into thinking about the use to anyone of your abusive do-nothingism. Do you think the Class is entering a revolutionary phase just now perhaps? Stop being silly and get to work.

It seems odd that you wish to change the content of this thread to my political activities past, present and future. It also seems odd that you assume that I'm not in favour of action without any actual evidence for such an idiotic assertion.

As for your assertion that an independent Wales will exploit workers that to is idotic. For is it not the case that, except when functioning as a collective capitalist, that the state does not exploit workers as such but rather functions as a support sytem for the capitalists who actually exploit the working classes. In any case it would seem that you do not grasp thepossibility that an independent Wales would be forced to increase the rate of exploitation the better to compete in world markets.

With regard to autonomy of Euskadi and Catalunya it is doubtful that it was beneficial to the continuation of the bourgeois republic. Indeed it could be argued that the granting of autonomy exacerbated the political crisis within the Spainish state although I have no firm opinion on that question. What is for certain is that the failure of the Republican regime to grant self determination to Spainish Morrocco, from which many of Francos troops were drawn, contributed to the defeat of the Republic.

Your choice not to use the words Wales or Welsh is your choice which I respect. but by the same token you must resect the choice of Anglophone Welsh people to use the terms we are most comfortable with. I any case we mean the same thing whichever name one uses for this small country.

As for Cliff I too heard hm say something very similar. But to the best of my kowledge of his writings, which is extensive, I've not found anything similar in print.

As for your moronic final comments produce proof that i advocate 'doing nothing' or shuit the fuck up. Although i do advocate doing nothing inn pursuit of an independent Wales/Cymru as such an aim is inimical to the interests of the working classes in this country. A country which I'm planning on leaving next year as it happens.

 

[Brockway]

A country which I'm planning on leaving next year as it happens.

Where you off? Anywhere nice?

 

[niclas]

I'm unable to make up my mind. Are you nashies thick as shit or just incredibly naive? Or both?

Any genuinely progressive independent state in Wales would be crushed within weeks byy imperialism. And the joke is they really wouldn't need to do much other than institute sanctions against Wales.

Either an independent Wales seeks to reach out to other countries and form a federal body with them, merging their economies and defence at very least, or you die. Fact is that a fully independent state and society cannot be achieved in the imperialist epoch.

I agree that Wales will only achieve a socialist republic within more favourable international conditions. There's no contradiction between wanting to destroy the British State, a bulwark of imperialism and reaction, and wanting to see an independent socialist Wales making links with the wider world.

Latin America has gone from a continent of fascist dictators to one of left-leaning (some better than others) democratic regimes in a generation. At their best, these new regimes offer a new challenge to global capitalism and Chavez on his re-election has talked repeatedly of a distinctively Venezuelan socialism.

Some on this list would condemn him as a national socialist, reformist, etc but his actions have shown him to be an innovative internationalist determined to build a different world order.

It won't be without its faults (and the Venezuelan situation is unusual because of the oil wealth) but it's already changing the world.

I hope we can contribute to something similar here in Europe, where we challenge global capitalism with a distinctive grassroots socialism that is meaningful to people here rather than the authoritarian offerings from high that have given the left such a bad name.

 

[neprimerimye]

Where you off? Anywhere nice?

As near as I can get to my girlfriends. And she is very nice indeed. For a reactionary that is.

Dunno when i'll be moving anyhow, money is a big problem, but I'm not in a position to do anything in Wales as i'm spending most weekends away.

 

[Brockway]

As near as I can get to my girlfriends. And she is very nice indeed. For a reactionary that is.

Dunno when i'll be moving anyhow, money is a big problem, but I'm not in a position to do anything in Wales as i'm spending most weekends away.

Hope it works out for you.

Don't stop posting on here though - I'd miss your interminable rants which only make sense to you and you alone and which bear no relevance to the real world.

 

[neprimerimye]

I agree that Wales will only achieve a socialist republic within more favourable international conditions. There's no contradiction between wanting to destroy the British State, a bulwark of imperialism and reaction, and wanting to see an independent socialist Wales making links with the wider world.

Latin America has gone from a continent of fascist dictators to one of left-leaning (some better than others) democratic regimes in a generation. At their best, these new regimes offer a new challenge to global capitalism and Chavez on his re-election has talked repeatedly of a distinctively Venezuelan socialism.

Some on this list would condemn him as a national socialist, reformist, etc but his actions have shown him to be an innovative internationalist determined to build a different world order.

It won't be without its faults (and the Venezuelan situation is unusual because of the oil wealth) but it's already changing the world.

I hope we can contribute to something similar here in Europe, where we challenge global capitalism with a distinctive grassroots socialism that is meaningful to people here rather than the authoritarian offerings from high that have given the left such a bad name.

Well we're way off topic now so this will be my last on this thread unless it returns to the topic named at top.

For the record I believe there is a contradiction between an independent Wales, which short of a social revolution can only be a bourgeois Wales and any attempt to smash the British state. An independent Wales representing an attempt to preserve a part of that very state.

As for Chavez and the other radicals now in government in some Latin American states they do not in the least challenge the rule of capital. What they do seek to do is renegotiate the relations of their indivuidal countries and their region with imperialism. Which I happen to consider a positive and supportable effort as long as the genuine socialist forces maintain their political independence from figures who are either Bonapartists (Chavez), Populists (Morales) or reformists (Lula). in short I do not hold the sectarian position towards these figures that you falsely seek to burden me with.

While I have some sympathies withyour final paragraph at bottom I suspect that your form of socialism is every bit as statist as the forms of socialism advocated by the Stalinists, Social Denmocrats and populist socialists ever were.

 

[neprimerimye]

Hope it works out for you.

Don't stop posting on here though - I'd miss your interminable rants which only make sense to you and you alone and which bear no relevance to the real world.

Thanks I appreciate that.

Did I ever claim my posts are relevant to the world as it is today? But unlike most lefties who post here they do relate to the real world.

Not likely to post here after moving. I can be found elsewhere ranting and raving as the mood takes me.

 

[ICB]

Why do you presume the people in charge of the WAG would be the ones running a self-governed Wales?

I think Wales needs to elect different people, not the current Assembly Government.

Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed? Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever. Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

"They may be retards but at least they're our retards"

This precisely illustrates the fatal flaw of nationalism and reformism in general the positing of nation over class. They are not "our retards" at all, actually an ordinary working man or woman in Wales has more common interest with an ordinary working man or woman in England than in a Welsh boss, Welsh manager or Welsh millionaire (of which their are many).

. As Tony Cliff used to tell us, the one group the capitalists must take into account was the IRA.

Your quote from Cliff seems odd, as far as I know, Cliff applied Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution to the question of Ireland. The capitalists have taken into account the IRA, generally nationalist politicians like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are as happy to support neoliberal assaults on working class people as their unionist counterparts.

While recognising the right of the Catholic minority community in the North of Ireland to self-defence and organise against oppression and discrimination, the SWP were/ are sharply critical of nationalist and republican politics that ultimately lead to a dead-end.
Nationalist politics in the North of Ireland can't appeal to Protestant workers or break the hold that unionism has on them. To do that, we would need to build socialist organisation from below. We would need to push a style of politics that was as hostile to the Green Tories in the South of Ireland as to the Orange Tories in the North. On the basis of a programme based on class rather than nationalism we might be able to break protestant workers away from the Orange Tories and build links with workers movements in the South. In fact, when we see the state of politics in Northern Ireland we see where the politics of nationalism leads and how it couldn't achieve it's aim of ending the British military presence and dismantling the sectarian regime in the North, this can't be done on the basis of nationalism it can only be achieved by class politics.

 

[chilango]

This precisely illustrates the fatal flaw of nationalism and reformism in general the positing of nation over class. They are not "our retards" at all, actually an ordinary working man or woman in Wales has more common interest with an ordinary working man or woman in England than in a Welsh boss, Welsh manager or Welsh millionaire (of which their are many).



Your quote from Cliff seems odd, as far as I know, Cliff applied Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution to the question of Ireland. The capitalists have taken into account the IRA, generally nationalist politicians like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are as happy to support neoliberal assaults on working class people as their unionist counterparts.

While recognising the right of the Catholic minority community in the North of Ireland to self-defence and organise against oppression and discrimination, the SWP were/ are sharply critical of nationalist and republican politics that ultimately lead to a dead-end.
Nationalist politics in the North of Ireland can't appeal to Protestant workers or break the hold that unionism has on them. To do that, we would need to build socialist organisation from below. We would need to push a style of politics that was as hostile to the Green Tories in the South of Ireland as to the Orange Tories in the North. On the basis of a programme based on class rather than nationalism we might be able to break protestant workers away from the Orange Tories and build links with workers movements in the South. In fact, when we see the state of politics in Northern Ireland we see where the politics of nationalism leads and how it couldn't achieve it's aim of ending the British military presence and dismantling the sectarian regime in the North, this can't be done on the basis of nationalism it can only be achieved by class politics.

Yeah, but stop using the word "tory" all the time...it doesn`t help.

 

[neprimerimye]

They are not "our retards" at all....

Your quote from Cliff seems odd, as far as I know, Cliff applied Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution to the question of Ireland. The capitalists have taken into account the IRA, generally nationalist politicians like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are as happy to support neoliberal assaults on working class people as their unionist counterparts.

Well of course they aren't your bastards being as you are an English revisionist.

Other than that I note that while abstractly correct your remarks relating to nationlaism are too abstract, signifying tha abndonment of the transitional method by the SWP, to have any concrete application. That an abstractly coorect politics is of no practicdal value is well illustrated by the decline of the Irish SWP for which wee http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78246

 

[lewislewis]

I can't help feeling that Nep, your 'workers' that you describe are ones that read Marx and are just waiting for the Red Guard to emerge and lead them to revolution.

Workers in Wales are generally not in favour of breaking with capital. Capital has provided them with clothes, jobs, food and houses in exchange for their labour. Now I don't have the skills or tools to make my own clothes, so I will sell my labour in other ways in exchange for money, so I can buy clothes.

Why should we break with that relationship when we don't want to? What reasonable case is there for Marxist Revolution when all such attempts have resulted in tyranny?

Nonetheless, Marx is the most valid and progressive political theorist of our history and his understanding of class relationships is mainly true. I simply don't think we can interpret him into a socialist revolution because it conflicts with human nature.

What we can do is inegrate socialist ideas into the current system so that when we're selling our labour we do it in a way that is fairer to us, and we do it for more money before.

There is no way we in Wales should be getting lower wages and less rights than other capitalist countries.
All the achievements of workers rights in Wales come from the ordinary people putting pressure on the government (The guys that WE choose to govern us). And considering what countries in the world have the best living standards for workers, they're liberal democracies following social democratic ideologies. We can build towards that in Wales. It can never happen in the UK state though, because the UK/England is a historically right-wing country. Wales is not.

And anyway, if you still want to break with capitalism for good, you'll find it alot easier to do so in an independent Wales.

 

[lewislewis]

Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed? Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever. Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.

There are good people in Wales but I think if we had the right tools to do the job (pun unintended haha) there'd be a greater chance of success.

The Assembly is a pathetic attempt to extend British rule in Wales whilst pretending that we are controlling our own affairs. However, I wouldn't have it abolished. I would have it turned into a body that actual governs Wales. I would vote for people who actually love Wales and want to see her prosper, to run this Assembly.

And in the context of Scotland leaving the UK if that happens, I think it'll swing in our favour pretty quickly.

 

[neprimerimye]

I can't help feeling that Nep, your 'workers' that you describe are ones that read Marx and are just waiting for the Red Guard to emerge and lead them to revolution.

Workers in Wales are generally not in favour of breaking with capital. Capital has provided them with clothes, jobs, food and houses in exchange for their labour. Now I don't have the skills or tools to make my own clothes, so I will sell my labour in other ways in exchange for money, so I can buy clothes.

Why should we break with that relationship when we don't want to? What reasonable case is there for Marxist Revolution when all such attempts have resulted in tyranny?

Nonetheless, Marx is the most valid and progressive political theorist of our history and his understanding of class relationships is mainly true. I simply don't think we can interpret him into a socialist revolution because it conflicts with human nature.

What we can do is inegrate socialist ideas into the current system so that when we're selling our labour we do it in a way that is fairer to us, and we do it for more money before.

There is no way we in Wales should be getting lower wages and less rights than other capitalist countries.
All the achievements of workers rights in Wales come from the ordinary people putting pressure on the government (The guys that WE choose to govern us). And considering what countries in the world have the best living standards for workers, they're liberal democracies following social democratic ideologies. We can build towards that in Wales. It can never happen in the UK state though, because the UK/England is a historically right-wing country. Wales is not.

And anyway, if you still want to break with capitalism for good, you'll find it alot easier to do so in an independent Wales.

If your first paragraph expresses how you think of my remarks then you are fantasing as nothing I have written here could logically lead you to such conclusions. But then judgeing from the rest of your post you are very obviously confused.

First off capital does not gift workers with 'clothes, jobs, food and houses' rather the opposite is true it is workers who produce these and all other commodities which the capitalists then expropriate from the producers. This is really very elementary stuff i suggest a reading of Adam Smith for more detail. And then a little Marx perhaps.

Given that you do not grasp the above point anything further you have to say about Marx and Marxism is worthless. Equally worthless is your suggestion that a social revolution cannot happen as it conflicts with 'human nature'. The problem with this being that a number of social revolutions have happened in the past and from what we know human nature has changed as a result of the corresponding chnages in the mode of production which led in their turn to major changes in human relations. Human nature then is not an a priori argument against a social revolution.

As for the rest of your post it is meaningless tosh with no content worth my wasting time replying to it. Assertions my friend are not arguments and that is what you need. Although given your idealist precopnceptions I doubt that you will find any valid arguments search how you will.

 

[niclas]

Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed? Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever. Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.

Unlike the towering geniuses that rule us from Westminster presumably? I'm constantly amazed at why leftists (and others) say the failure of the politicians in Cardiff Bay makes Welsh people unable to govern themselves whereas the failure of politicians in Westminster means we have to replace them.