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Yes, that's right. And various countries -- not all -- have signed up to the Berne convention since. The USA as recently as 1989; China and Sweden not at all.

What I was saying is that in the UK, I think within the last ten years, the way one asserts copyright has been changed.

Previously, one had to actively assert one's copyright, or it simply wouldn't exist. One had at least to affix a copyright notice to the work, and (I think) also register it with some institution.

That has changed. This post, for example, is automatically my copyright. There's nothing I have to do or say to claim copyright privileges over this arrangement of words.
 
Jonti said:
I prefer to use the word "steal" to mean "deprive of property".

If you fraudulent obtain an academic degree you enrich yourself at the cost of the tax payer.
You steal what isn't yours to have from the State, using for this the university as part of the State's educational system which is funded by the country's tax payers to make its implementation and functioning possible.
Would you steal such a degree from a totally privately funded university you steal it from its shareholders.
All of which is theft by fraude.

Using such a fraudulent degree for accepting a job requiring the academic qualification you fraudulently obtained has the consequence that the job is unavailable from someone who obtained the degree according its requirements. Which is theft by fraude.

Copyright violations, plagiarism and the like don't actually remove what is "stolen" from the possession of the victim.

It does remove the uniqueness of the intellectual property, if the violation is discovered or not. Restauration most of the time requires use of the legal system. Every cost thereof for the owner and even every minute of his time is stolen by default by the abuser.

PS The present state of English law is that plagiarism is automatically *also* a copyright violation. This is because what we write or create is now automatically copyright of the author. In other words, one no longer has to actively assert copyright over one's writings. This change in the law happened fairly recently.

That is not what is discussed.
If I write something and give it to you to use as you wish, I automatically renounce my copyright and hand that also over to you. If as consequence you fraudulently obtain an academic degree you are the sole responsible for stealing that degree with use of my work. Unless you can prove otherwise.

salaam.
 
Jonti said:
Yes, that's right. And various countries -- not all -- have signed up to the Berne convention since. The USA as recently as 1989; China and Sweden not at all.

What I was saying is that in the UK, I think within the last ten years, the way one asserts copyright has been changed.

Previously, one had to actively assert one's copyright, or it simply wouldn't exist. One had at least to affix a copyright notice to the work, and (I think) also register it with some institution.

That has changed. This post, for example, is automatically my copyright. There's nothing I have to do or say to claim copyright privileges over this arrangement of words.

Well, you still have to indicate the work is a copyright work, usually by (c).
 
I suspect you wouldn't care if everything you have is taken from you and you would not file a complaint if you knew who did it.
The problem with this - as it also is with genuine plagiarism - is not "academic honour" but the stealing of the thus gained academic evaluation/reward. Which is a robbery done on the education system. Which is theft.
hmm lol.

anyway, what if i was poor and i needed a loaf of bread to feed my family?

Ahh i'm stealing form the great british public! ok, you got me, its about as immoral as minor benefit fraud. personally it makes me laugh that you are such a petty man that you use words like 'immoral' in such situations, mostly it would seem to validate your own worth as an academic, rather than any awful consequences.
 
yeah whatever. its touching that you think that the vast number of people, their job dosn't make them wish they were dead.
 
Aldebaran said:
If you fraudulent obtain an academic degree you enrich yourself at the cost of the tax payer.
You steal what isn't yours to have from the State, using for this the university as part of the State's educational system which is funded by the country's tax payers to make its implementation and functioning possible...
The word "fraud" covers this sort of thing, so why obscure the issue by using an inaccurate term? Heck, you'll be calling plagiarists "idea rustlers" next! Theft refers to depriving a person of their property.

I strongly disagree that ideas can "belong" to any person.
 
Jonti said:
The word "fraud" covers this sort of thing. Theft refers to depriving a person of their property.

I strongly disagree that ideas can "belong" to any person.

Intellectual property law does not cover the ownership of ideas, it covers the expression of that idea.

Anyone can have an idea.
 
I'm afraid that although that is a rational view, it is not a legal view.

Software patents, for example, attempt to give ownership of the idea to the patent holder. A coder can come up with the idea completely independently, and express it in entirely in their own code. Yet still be committing a crime (in the USA). The same is true of "business process patents".

I agree this is a nonsense, and a deep attack on freedom of thought and expression, but that's the state of the game right now.

For more info on the European position ... http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/index.html
 
That is the legal view - a pure idea cannot be protected.

For a patent to be granted, the invention must be novel (new), inventive (non-obvious) and have utility (it must been reduced to practice).

An idea may be new or inventive but unless it has been reduced to practice it would not be patentable, and, if it has been reduced to practice it would no longer be just an idea.

For information on the European patent law position go to:

http://www.epo.org/focus/issues/computer-implemented-inventions.html
 
However a patent is granted, whatever fine words are used, if coder can come up with the idea completely independently, express it in entirely in their own code, and still be committing a crime, then the idea itself, not the expression, has been monopolised.

I agree the position in Europe is far better than in the USA, but it's been a fight to keep things that way, and the fight is not yet over.
 
The US patent position is completely different to the European (and indeed most of the rest of the world) position.

A coder or company would only be committing a crime in the US if they were manufacturing, selling or distributing the code in the US. Plus their code would have to have all the features of the first claim of the patent to be considered infringing.

Also, as the US operates a first to invent system rather than a first to file, if the coder could prove (through the use of countersigned lab books) that they were the first to invent, there would be no infringement.

Also, I think there's an exclusion under UK copyright law if you come up with the same copyright work independently of someone else. But I'd have to check that.

Most software tends be protected under copyright laws anyway as copyright gives a longer protection term that a patent, and the algorithms can be kept secret. Plus there is no requirement to show a technical contribution as there is under patent law.
 
If a coder who comes up with the idea completely independently, and expresses it in entirely in their own code, is committing a crime, then the idea itself has been monopolised.

Yes, it's my understanding as well, that it is a valid defense to an allegation of copyright infringement to show that the work was, despite appearances, originated independently.

What you wrote "the US operates a first to invent system rather than a first to file" could be taken by some to imply prior art does not apply in Europe. But it does, as the Indian case against the EPO demonstrates (link)

I know we've beaten back the attempt to introduce software patents in Europe, but you may still find this letter from Donald Knuth to the USPO of interest, if you have not already seen it.
 
That sentence does not imply that prior art does not count in Europe.

If anything, the US system is actually set up (thanks to a quick fix legal amendment that has created inconsistencies) to exclude prior art that does not have US filing date.

That link looks interesting, I'll read it tomorrow (it'll count as work).
 
equationgirl said:
...Most software tends be protected under copyright laws anyway as copyright gives a longer protection term that a patent, and the algorithms can be kept secret. Plus there is no requirement to show a technical contribution as there is under patent law.
These are *not* the reasons why the Linux kernel, and other GPL code, is protected by copyright rather than patents.

I am very happy to explain more fully later, but it's time for bed for me!
 
Yes, it is open-source. The binaries (the executable instructions expressed in machine-code for for the diverse processor architectures) are licensed for use under the GNU General Public License. Notice that the license has teeth only in jurisdictions which have (Berne-style) copyright legislation :)

More later.
 
Gmarthews said:
Obviously people fear being treated by a doctor who has done this, but that is why we have examinations and training on the job with qualified staff. If there was a problem then our system would pick it up and would highlight the need for re-training, or sacking.

Unfortunately, some of that on-the-job training would involve treating patients. If they get away with it for a while, a lot of people could suffer.

Bob_the_lost said:
No, i think 118118 was training to be a doctor, got rather far through the process and decided to change course. He's now doing / done (?) another degree in a humanities subject i believe.

I'm really glad to hear that. I hope he doesn't go back - I wouldn't trust the attitude of someone who thinks cheating's OK; it makes me think they'd also cut corners and be slapdash in their work.
 
scifisam said:
Unfortunately, some of that on-the-job training would involve treating patients. If they get away with it for a while, a lot of people could suffer.



I'm really glad to hear that. I hope he doesn't go back - I wouldn't trust the attitude of someone who thinks cheating's OK; it makes me think they'd also cut corners and be slapdash in their work.
Yeah. Some of the scariest thinking is "end justifies the means" thinking...
 
pembrokestephen said:
...[plagiarism].. is trying to gain an advantage at the expense of your peers - who are, after all, labouring under the same corrupt system - and aiming to end up with the same qualification as them, but with less skills.

Having read through this whole thread, I would be really interested in what people who defend plagiarism think about this particular point?

Maybe plagiarism is a way of redressing inequalities in ability and opportunity, or an act of defiance against a corrupt system. But do your fellow students deserve to have their own hard work devalued by your decision to cheat?
 
... i always thought Linux was opensource.
It is a remarkably common misconception that open-source is antithetical to copyright. It's not true, even though I have read articles, in apparently authoritative magazines intended for a business readership, that make this assumption. Yet a few minutes reading the major opensource license, the GPL, is sufficient to dispel the notion!

Perhaps the explanation is that people who support the GPL and software freedom tend to be acutely aware of the hazards of copyright, and the abuses by corporate interests that are such a prominent part of contemporary cultural life. There is money in ringfencing ideas and expressions for one's own benefit, and to the detriment of the wider society, most especially if the state can be persuaded to pay its officials and police to enforce this!

Apart from that, an uncritical acceptance of the notion of copyright can lead to absurd and even dangerous situations. For example, the dangerous cult of Scientology has aggressively used copyright legislation to prevent people finding out just what it's really about.

If there were no state interference in the free transmission and use of ideas and expressions, then the opensource movement would still be able to function, it's true (although Scientology might not, for it would find itself widely, perhaps fatally, exposed to ridicule). People would still be free to co-operate with each other, and to share code. But the code they published would likely be taken and used in products and programs which kept their workings hidden from their users. Copyright allows us to prevent our co-operative efforts being privatised in that way, and kept open for the benefit of everyone, if we so choose.

Not all opensource coders make this choice -- in part it depends on one's purposes. A remarkably good way to explain a protocol, and to have it coded correctly by everyone, is simply to publish source code that expresses the intended protocol exactly, and allow others to use it without any restriction at all. Then people and corporates who want to publish their programs in binary form only can just take that source code, and incorporate it into their own source code. The compiled program only (not the source) can be distributed or sold, and although its working are opaque, one can be reasonably certain that the protocols are executed correctly. There's a fair bit of this sort of "opensource" code in Windows, as it happens (although one cannot demand the source to the MS program, one is of course still free to use the original code that MS has incorporated).
 
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