Bush sides with Mexicans.

[TomUS]

They had a few US flags at the front of the march and then it was just mexican flags....

Arrogance beyond belief. A sea of illegal alians waving Mexican flags. The reaction of most Americans is "You love Mexico so much? Then go the fuck home!" Imagine millions of Americans sneaking into France, parading around waving American flags, demanding automatic French citzenship & saying "we're here & we're not leaving."

There was a picture in the paper today of an illegal alian demonstrating in Washington with a sign that said "No Second Class Citizens." But of course he isn't a citizen, and that'ts the point.

 

[camouflage]

I think the Mexicans haven't forgotten that California is belong to Mejico!

Mejico will take back the lan jus stole in de War of 46!

Besides, Bush wan'ts more cheap Mexican labor for his mequila-barons. So, strange bed-fellows all round.

 

[TomUS]

I think the Mexicans haven't forgotten that California is belong to Mejico!

Mejico will take back the lan jus stole in de War of 46!

Besides, Bush wan'ts more cheap Mexican labor for his mequila-barons. So, strange bed-fellows all round.

Strange indeed. Both left & right will knuckle under to the illegals.

Unfortunately, I think you're right that Mexico will, or already has taken back the land stolen in the Mex-Amer war. But, going by that logic, most of the countries on earth will have to give back land taken in wars throughout the centuries. The indegenous people left in mexico may want to take back their land too.

 

[rogue yam]

Unfortunately, I think you're right that Mexico will, or already has taken back the land stolen in the Mex-Amer war.

The border will stay where it is. This land has been American for longer than it was ever Mexican, and we "stole" it no more than they did. It's ours, we're keeping it, and if the Mexican's don't like it then that's just too bad. We can kick their asses again whenever we decide to.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The border will stay where it is. This land has been American for longer than it was ever Mexican, and we "stole" it no more than they did. It's ours, we're keeping it, and if the Mexican's don't like it then that's just too bad. We can kick their asses again whenever we decide to.

But where will your country be when they withdraw their maid service in retaliation?

 

[newharper]

This is an article that puts forward the progressive opposition to immigration.

It's a simple case of the influx of cheap labour forcing down wages and maximising profits.

Reality says that nothing short of making mexico et al worthwhile staying in,will stop migration; so no chance there then.

This does leave the Republicans with a worry, as it splits their coalition of 'rednecks' and corporatists down the middle.

Molly has her usual 'amusing' take on the matter.

Minutemen or not, no fence will work, the south-west and to a certain amount the south is going to have get used to cultural change.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The border will stay where it is. This land has been American for longer than it was ever Mexican, and we "stole" it no more than they did. It's ours, we're keeping it, and if the Mexican's don't like it then that's just too bad. We can kick their asses again whenever we decide to.

You couldn't kick shit off your shoe, dufus. Let alone any "asses".

 

[TomUS]

It's a simple case of the influx of cheap labour forcing down wages and maximising profits.

That's why the Wall Street Journal editorial today said "do Rebublicans want to continue in the Regan tradition of American optimism and faith in assimilation that sends a message of inclusiveness to all races?"
How sweet & enlightened....

 

[camouflage]

The border will stay where it is. This land has been American for longer than it was ever Mexican, and we "stole" it no more than they did. It's ours, we're keeping it, and if the Mexican's don't like it then that's just too bad. We can kick their asses again whenever we decide to.

States and lines drawn on maps come and go. We human beings have these long legs see, that's why in a mere [estimated] twelve thousand years we spread from East Africa to all over the planet. Imaginary lines come and go but people will walk where people need to walk. Immigration is essentially a force of nature, and nature alwasy wins eventually, it is patient and forceful. In the past people migrated to follow bovine herds or fertile forests or fresh-water systems, today they migrate to areas of high economic activity. It doesn't matter whether the concept known as the United States of America that currently exists continues to claim ownership of this patch of land or not, the fact is that the facts on the ground will be alot more dark skinned people that speak Spanish that we call 'Mexican' will be living in California.

You have a problem with dark skinned people? Here's an idea, stop fucking over their countries so they can't make their societies better places to live so you can enrich your pinewood-study conspiring cigar-smoking fat-cats, stop corrupting their militaries with your torture-schools and 'military-aid'(bribe-n-buy) programs and crushing their labor movements and striping their lands of resoureces at .38-to-head prices and getting really arsey and interventionist whenever they try a little socialisticness to invest in their people and their infrastructure, let the darkies make their nations better places to live in too. Most people prefffer not to have to move to a foreign country where they are regarded as lesser people just to survive. Here's a clue, political organizations that express an interest in pro-actively improving the lot of as many poor people as they can will be the ones most effective at reducing the migration of lots of poor people to your much-vaunted City on the Hill.

So if you hear some Latin politicos muttering stuff about trying to provide free healthcare or education or better wages, making busniesses pay real taxes or laying claim to national assets currently owned by the massive Fruit&Minerals Corporation, don't think "Oh My god my Shares! My damn Shartes!! Bring out the fascist generals immediately!" instead, just stay cool eh.

Anyway, one day you might find yourselves like the Serbians trying to hold on to land you consider historicaly yours, and then being forced by the 'International Community' to vacate it because a majority non-yanqui people have since moved in and you no longer have the right to consider it your sovereign territory. How dja like them apples

except Kosovo really was part of the Serbian heartland for hundreds of years before the US even existed

One day there will be the Independent Protectorate of California, and within its borders angry Mexican militants will kill and oppress hold-out yanks under the watchful eye of the UN or whatever, and everybody will say how horrible the yanks are with their ethnic-cleansing ways, point at the Klan as proof, and tut tut tut. Ugly chickens eh.

 

[TomUS]

You have a problem with dark skinned people?

Some may but I don't. I do have a big problem with people of any color (really with governments on both sides of the border & US business that encourage the illegal alian cheap labor trade)invading this patch of land called the US & driving legal US residents to 3rd world living standards.

The solution, although not a total one, begins with the wall, & continues with the round up & deportation of illegals, & a crack down on employers of illegals.

Iraquis have a right to fight the US/UK invasion. Americans have a right to fight the illegal's (mostly Mexican) invasion.

Replacing US politicians with some with guts enough to threaten to lob a few cruise missiles into the presidential palace in Mecico City wouldn't hurt either. But that's just a fantacy.

 

[camouflage]

Some may but I don't. I do have a big problem with people of any color (really with governments on both sides of the border & US business that encourage the illegal alian cheap labor trade)invading this patch of land called the US & driving legal US residents to 3rd world living standards.

The solution, although not a total one, begins with the wall, & continues with the round up & deportation of illegals, & a crack down on employers of illegals.

Iraquis have a right to fight the US/UK invasion. Americans have a right to fight the illegal's (mostly Mexican) invasion.

Replacing US politicians with some with guts enough to threaten to lob a few cruise missiles into the presidential palace in Mecico City wouldn't hurt either. But that's just a fantacy.

Saw this documentary called A Gringo in South America or something once, it was fucking heartbreaking. We followed the travels of our 'gringo' as he went from watching children and their familys forced by the economic system to pick coffee-beans and toxic bannanas all day in places like Peru and Ecuador, to young Mexicans driven to face an unknown future in hostile El Norte because there is no other means for them to live in their own home. Thousands of cheap labor volunteer economic-slaves risking death to leave their homes behind.

Gringo asked one pregnant young woman what she expected to find in the US, she told him she didn't know, she just wanted to give her child a better life, something that wasn't possible in Mexico. You could see the fear in her eyes as she contemplated the future. But wouldn't you do the same for your children in her shoes? Cross any barrier to give your children a better future? Picture the chain-link fence, the armed border guards in their shades and cowboy hats, swaggering and chewing gum, clearly just as happy to shoot the lowly 'illegals' as US troops are to shoot the lowly 'hajis' in Iraq, or the 'gooks' before them.

This is what US dominance of the Americas have bought about, this is the fruit of the Monroe Doctrine, poverty and a survival imperative that points north into your sassy gun-weilding sneery rich and arrogant lands, full of victim-complex militias backed by a government that invades far away countries in the name of money and power but calls it Freedom&Democracy and the WarOnTerror. I find your attitude sickening because it shows you live in a world of cowboys and indians and other shallow hollywood narratives that have no sympathy or insight into the human experience.

It's all a hero-fantasy with missiles and deathlords to you isn't it, poor beleagured America trying to resist the relentless march of the Mexican Imperium. The waves of South American immigration you face is merely another dimension in the WarOfTerror you guys have been waging on the South since way before Bush's time. You'll inflict the likes of Pinochet on them or slash away their rights for the likes of United Fruit or whatever it's called now, and then use them as domestic servants and rightless workers, then add insult to the considerable injuries by casting the whole thing as them attacking you. Anything that aligns with your essentially militarist culture I suppose, WayOftheGun-tinted glasses help you to ignore the nature of your nations system and its effects on the people upon whose throat your collective boot rests. In a way this is like the time Africa invaded America, sending its armies of millions to subdue the South eh?

"Bring Me Your Huddled Masses as we quite like the cheap rightless labor" says the US ruling class. Now maybe you'll understand that their interests are not the same as working class Americans, maybe you'll stop beleiving in their wars and interpretations of world affairs. All the rights American citizens have today were faught for and struggled for and taken from the elites by earlier generations. If you can't see the way it fits together now then it shows astoundingly Orwellian ignorance or mendacity on your part, you've been succesfully programmed by the masters of your culture. They know the game-theory of divide, conquor, rule. All you have is an unthinking reactionary naivete called 'patriotism'.

 

[nino_savatte]

Some may but I don't. I do have a big problem with people of any color (really with governments on both sides of the border & US business that encourage the illegal alian cheap labor trade)invading this patch of land called the US & driving legal US residents to 3rd world living standards.

The solution, although not a total one, begins with the wall, & continues with the round up & deportation of illegals, & a crack down on employers of illegals.

Iraquis have a right to fight the US/UK invasion. Americans have a right to fight the illegal's (mostly Mexican) invasion.

Replacing US politicians with some with guts enough to threaten to lob a few cruise missiles into the presidential palace in Mecico City wouldn't hurt either. But that's just a fantacy.

This is all warped; what makes you think that "illegals" will force US residents into "third world living standards"? Besides, the poor of the US have been living under third world conditions for the better part of two centuries, you appear to have overlooked this in your haste to condemn anyone who doesn't conform to the contours of "Americanism".

Like the racist Minutemen, you're nothing but a xenophobe who denies that he's a xenophobe because you don't want to be called a "racist". Yet, that is what you are.

 

[nino_savatte]

The border will stay where it is. This land has been American for longer than it was ever Mexican, and we "stole" it no more than they did. It's ours, we're keeping it, and if the Mexican's don't like it then that's just too bad. We can kick their asses again whenever we decide to.

Wrong, shit-for-brains, perhaps you've forgotten presidents like James Knox Polk and Zachary Taylor (a general under Polk) who were both heavily involved in territorial disputes with Mexico. Wars were started with Mexico as a pretext to steal territory from them and for no other reason. Oh...and they were darker-skinned too.

I expect you to return and call me a "retard" but I'm ready for you.

 

[rogue yam]

Wrong, shit-for-brains, perhaps you've forgotten presidents like James Knox Polk and Zachary Taylor (a general under Polk) who were both heavily involved in territorial disputes with Mexico. Wars were started with Mexico as a pretext to steal territory from them and for no other reason. Oh...and they were darker-skinned too.

Another complete non sequitur with a race card thrown on top. You really don't have any game at all, do you?

 

[nino_savatte]

Another complete non sequitur with a race card thrown on top. You really don't have any game at all, do you?

It's only a "non-sequitir" because, in common with racists, xenophobes and those who seek to rewrite history to suit their agenda, you deny the truth. But then, you wouldn't understand the truth if it came up and stabbed you through your non-existent heart.

Au contraire; it is you who has no "game" bar the one where you call others "retards". I shall take this as evidence of your patent lack of historical knowledge.

E2A: you also seem to forget the numbers of early US presidents who were slave-owners (Taylor & Polk included, both of whom owned slaves whilst serving as president). Or perhaps you regard slavery as a colour-blind benevolent institution?

Are you a racist, yammie? I don't expect you to admit to being a racist but most of your views tend to lean in that direction.

 

[TomUS]

If you can't see the way it fits together now then it shows astoundingly Orwellian ignorance or mendacity on your part, you've been succesfully programmed by the masters of your culture. They know the game-theory of divide, conquor, rule. All you have is an unthinking reactionary naivete called 'patriotism'.

Oh how little you know of my "patriotism." It's the last refuge of a scoundrel as Samuel Johnson said. You seem to have missed the point of my post. The main problem isn't the illegals. I'd do the same thing if I were them probably. The problem is with the masters in the US & Mexico who encourage & profit from the illegal cheap labor trade.

 

[TomUS]

Like the racist Minutemen, you're nothing but a xenophobe who denies that he's a xenophobe because you don't want to be called a "racist". Yet, that is what you are.

So easy to yell racist at those you disagree with. Very easy & doesn't require much thought. The same tactic has been use constantly by the illegals in the US & the elites in Mexico & the US that profit from the cheap labor trafficking. However, we the majority of decent Americans who have the arrogance to say that every country, even ours, has the right to defend it's borders will no longer be intiimidated or silenced by this tactic.

 

[camouflage]

Oh how little you know of my "patriotism." It's the last refuge of a scoundrel as Samuel Johnson said. You seem to have missed the point of my post. The main problem isn't the illegals. I'd do the same thing if I were them probably. The problem is with the masters in the US & Mexico who encourage & profit from the illegal cheap labor trade.

Then we seem to be in agreement, but I'm suspicious of the way you like to call the Mexican immegrants "illegals". Reductionist language was a theme in Orwells book as well, notice how reductionist terms for people are always used by those who want to dehumanize, invade, occupy, torture and control. That kind of crap is best avoided by people of human principal.

 

[nino_savatte]

So easy to yell racist at those you disagree with. Very easy & doesn't require much thought. The same tactic has been use constantly by the illegals in the US & the elites in Mexico & the US that profit from the cheap labor trafficking. However, we the majority of decent Americans who have the arrogance to say that every country, even ours, has the right to defend it's borders will no longer be intiimidated or silenced by this tactic.

It's so easy for someone like you to miss the obvious xenophobia that accompanies vigilante groups like this. But then, the US has a history of hostility towards the immigrants it claims to welcome. How many non-whites (that is to say Blacks and so on) are members of the Minutemen? I shall tell you: few, if none...indeed there are no black Minutemen. Now why do you think that is?)

I don't suppose you are familiar with the Knownothings of the 19th century. In fact, I could say with a certain degree of certainty, that you are an inheritor of their mantle and an apologist for xenophobic citizens armies.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh how little you know of my "patriotism." It's the last refuge of a scoundrel as Samuel Johnson said. You seem to have missed the point of my post. The main problem isn't the illegals. I'd do the same thing if I were them probably. The problem is with the masters in the US & Mexico who encourage & profit from the illegal cheap labor trade.

So all you are doing here is proposing a treatment for the symptoms and not a cure for the cause of this.

 

[TomUS]

It's so easy for someone like you to miss the obvious xenophobia that accompanies vigilante groups like this. But then, the US has a history of hostility towards the immigrants it claims to welcome. How many non-whites (that is to say Blacks and so on) are members of the Minutemen? I shall tell you: few, if none...indeed there are no black Minutemen. Now why do you think that is?)

Let me try again to state my position. I'm sure there is some racism in the minutememen group. And that I do not like. However, the problem as usual is with the elites. The bosses of the US benefit from an endless flow of cheap 3rd world labor. The greater the supply of desperate people, the lower the wages/benefits they have to pay to US citizens. The average American worker pays the price.

The elite of Mexico benefit from their ability to dump their unwantd & troublesom citizens into the US. Much easier than providing jobs & social services in Mexico.

The main "problem" isn't the individuals who cross the border illegally in search of a better life. It's the rulers on both sides who encourage/profit from this illegal border trade. The poor Mexican illegal immigrants are simply the visible result of these policies. That's why the mulitemen & others target them. Do you think the Wall Sreet Journal gives a damn about these people? Of course not. They simply want cheap 3rd word labor.

 

[nino_savatte]

Let me try again to state my position. I'm sure there is some racism in the minutememen group. And that I do not like. However, the problem as usual is with the elites. The bosses of the US benefit from an endless flow of cheap 3rd world labor. The greater the supply of desperate people, the lower the wages/benefits they have to pay to US citizens. The average American worker pays the price.

The elite of Mexico benefit from their ability to dump their unwantd & troublesom citizens into the US. Much easier than providing jobs & social services in Mexico.

The main "problem" isn't the individuals who cross the border illegally in search of a better life. It's the rulers on both sides who encourage/profit from this illegal border trade. The poor Mexican illegal immigrants are simply the visible result of these policies. That's why the mulitemen & others target them. Do you think the Wall Sreet Journal gives a damn about these people? Of course not. They simply want cheap 3rd word labor.

Let me state my position: I don't like xenophobia and I see plenty of that with groups like the Minutemen. You are merely apologising for a group of racist vigilantes who work to their own agenda but call themselves 'patriots'.

You've swallowed the anti-immigrant propaganda hook, line and sinker and have ended up sounding like another apologist for racists and xenophobes all over the USA, but it is curious how you've taken no position as a result...