Burqas are prisons - Muslim minister

[kyser_soze]

Human rights are not national, they are universal,...

Well actually, the concept of human rights that permeates the world now is one that emerged from Western Europe during the Enlightenment period, and is the result of a regionally specific culture. Concepts like Rights of Man simply didn't exist in the way we know them until the time of the enlightenment,and it's only really in the post WW2 era that the notion of 'universal' human rights has gained currency globally - and they aren't universally accepted (or even known about) as a concept or reality.

 

[fela fan]

universal declaration of human rights

Well actually, the concept of human rights that permeates the world now is one that emerged from Western Europe during the Enlightenment period, and is the result of a regionally specific culture. Concepts like Rights of Man simply didn't exist in the way we know them until the time of the enlightenment,and it's only really in the post WW2 era that the notion of 'universal' human rights has gained currency globally - and they aren't universally accepted (or even known about) as a concept or reality.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


And all the other articles can be found on the link below.

I'm talking about today, the thread's about a current situation, not 70 years ago. I repeat, human rights are just that, human, they can't have adjectives to modify basic behaviour of / attitudes towards humans, not this or that human.

You're welcome to point out any article in the declaration that speaks for any particular race or creed, at the expense of the rest of the humans.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

 

[kyser_soze]

fela<------------------------------------------------->the point

Human rights are the product of a specific culture, not some nebulous universal thing that existed eternally. Indeed, the UDHR was made at the founding of the UN - an organisation created by the old imperialist powers and the rising one, your bete noir the Americans.

Not everyone agrees with these rights, no everyone has them, indeed many people have never even heard of them.

 

[butchersapron]

Human Rights are wrong and should be resisted at all costs.

Against human rights - Slavoj Žižek

Alibi for militarist interventions, sacralization for the tyranny of the market, ideological foundation for the fundamentalism of the politically correct: can the ‘symbolic fiction’ of universal rights be recuperated for the progressive politicization of actual socio-economic relations?

 

[fela fan]

Human Rights are wrong and should be resisted at all costs.

Against human rights - Slavoj Žižek

I'm afraid it's too long at this stage of the night to read.

But human rights for all are a great aspiration in my book.

 

[Aldebaran]

Your substantial point is correct. But on the christian headcovering thing, i attended mass every day except saturday from the ages of 5 to 16. I never once saw a woman with a head covering.

edit: and that was in RC churches. I can't talk for the proddies but i doubt they paid any heed to the pope one way or the other.

You never went to Mass in Spain or Italy?

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

"It was the norm until a few decades ago for Christian women to cover their heads in church in this country"

 

[Aldebaran]

No, but any human (or invisible entity) that makes half the population of the planet view nature and God's wonderful creations through a tiny eye slit and forbids them from feeling the summer breeze on their body, the rain on their hair, or the sun on their face sure sounds mighty fucked up to me.

It looks maybe simple to you, and clear cut, but there is of course much more to it than what meets the eye, especially that of the outsider.
Fatima Mernissi is a well known sociologue. I don't always agree with the angle she takes, but she has a very good and interesting insight in the sociology of all things considering the discrimination of women (she covers the Arab World only, but from there extrapolating to similar methods in other societies is only a step).

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

But you can produce no quote from scripture to confirm this?

1. Al Qur'an: God's Revelation to the Prophet Muhammed = Word of God.

2. Every single hadith: human tells story remembering the Prophet Muhammed, or his companions or other of his relationships or events they lived through = stories told by human A who heard it from B who heard it from C who was a in relationship with D who was in contact with E who heard it from F who was a friend G who was a companion of the Prophet and first hand witness to what it told (or: a relative, a close friend etc.. and variation on A,B,C,D,E, F,G there are plenty, while the isnad can be longer or shorter, it can be broken it can be unsound it can be unreliable for various other reasons, it can be doubtful it can be classified as verified and sound.)
Resumé: words of humans about the Prophet of God = no Revelation of God = no Word of God.

Do you want it in a drawing or is it clear enough now?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

"It was the norm until a few decades ago for Christian women to cover their heads in church in this country"

I think he meant it in general. You can see women cover their hair in churches and wear "decent" clothing up to this day. It is even much insisted on for tourists in Rome, in Venice and many other places.

salaam.

 

[derf]

^^

There really is something particularly infuriating about this kind of sentiment. Never mind the crap username.

I like my username. If you do a search you may even understand it.

 

[derf]

No, not all 'christian countries' (!) are the same. Thery have different cultures. Cultures which are to a greater or lesser degree bound up with their religious development. It's impossible to seperate that living reality into culture on the one hand and religion on the other, given that they are both substantial components of each other . Thank you for helping me make my point.

I guess if you want to see islamophobia then you're going to see islamophobia.

My point is that Muslim countries are the same as Christian ones. The laws and culture may be influenced by Islam but they are far from the same.

The local Javanese culture is far apart from anything you would see in Arabic or north asian countries but 90% of the local population are Muslim. That part of local culture is totallly separate from Islam.

Some people are Islamaphobic and don't even realise what they are doing. They tend to assign western values to whatever they talk about with no regard for what other people think or how they live.
As it goes I don't like to see women in full coverings but I would never dream of having a go at someone for their own ideas of what is right as long as it hurts no one else.
You also have to remember that many women consider such dress as the norm and would not wish to change.

 

[treelover]

Alibi for militarist interventions, sacralization for the tyranny of the market, ideological foundation for the fundamentalism of the politically correct: can the ‘symbolic fiction’ of universal rights be recuperated for the progressive politicization of actual socio-economic relations?

So, what does he suggest they are replaced with?, they may be flawed and sometimes used as cover for imperialist adventures, they may indeed be a 'modern' invention and perhaps culturally specific but my God, i would rather have them than not. Radovan Karadzic in the dock is surely better that him getting away scott free.

 

[danny la rouge]

My point is that Muslim countries are the same as Christian ones. The laws and culture may be influenced by Islam but they are far from the same.

Is there anyone on this thread claiming there is a worldwide homogeneity in Muslim culture?

Some people are Islamaphobic and don't even realise what they are doing.

Is this just a general observation, or had you anyone in mind?

 

[poului]

1. Al Qur'an: God's Revelation to the Prophet Muhammed = Word of God.

2. Every single hadith: human tells story remembering the Prophet Muhammed, or his companions or other of his relationships or events they lived through = stories told by human A who heard it from B who heard it from C who was a in relationship with D who was in contact with E who heard it from F who was a friend G who was a companion of the Prophet and first hand witness to what it told (or: a relative, a close friend etc.. and variation on A,B,C,D,E, F,G there are plenty, while the isnad can be longer or shorter, it can be broken it can be unsound it can be unreliable for various other reasons, it can be doubtful it can be classified as verified and sound.)
Resumé: words of humans about the Prophet of God = no Revelation of God = no Word of God.

Do you want it in a drawing or is it clear enough now?

salaam.

Thouroughly rational at points when it's convenient. So I'll take that as a "no" to my original question, then.

 

[poului]

I like my username. If you do a search you may even understand it.

Life really is too short, I'm afraid.

 

[Aldebaran]

Thouroughly rational at points when it's convenient. So I'll take that as a "no" to my original question, then.

Read Al Qur'an. I'm not exactly planning to c&p the whole of it here
Read all the Hadith compilations. I'm not going to post +7000 traditions here.

That you have no clue about what "Word of God" stands for in comparison with "word of human" is hardly my concern.
If you want to take "word of human" as equal to "Word of God", be my guest.
It doesn't make it equal for those who believe in God even if you keep insisting it is until you die of old age.

Next!

salaam.

 

[danny la rouge]

Life really is too short, I'm afraid.

It's a soap power brand from the 1950s.

 

[poului]

Read Al Qur'an. I'm not exactly planning to c&p the whole of it here
Read all the Hadith compilations. I'm not going to post +7000 traditions here.

That you have no clue about what "Word of God" stands for in comparison with "word of human" is hardly my concern.
If you want to take "word of human" as equal to "Word of God", be my guest.
It doesn't make it equal for those who believe in God even if you keep insisting it is until you die of old age.

Next!

salaam.

I asked you quite clearly if you can produce a single unambiguous clarification of said statuses in any of the texts in question, something that I'm sure would not be above the capabilities of a benign deity. You can't and are now resorting to standard pious rhetoric to feign some kind of "victory".

What exactly is unreasonable about my question?

 

[Aldebaran]

What exactly is unreasonable about my question?

The question is answered, repeatedly. What on earth is it that you don't understand?

salaam.

 

[poului]

The question is answered, repeatedly.

Then give me a quote then!

Just one will do.

 

[Aldebaran]

The mere fact that Al Qur'an is the Word of God, the Message of God revealed to the Prophet of God, makes the whole of Al Qur'an the quote you are asking for.
The mere fact that there is no such thing as Word of God revealed to the Prophet of God or to any other human in any tradition told by humans about the Prophet of God, makes every hadith the quote you want.

A child understands that.

salaam.

 

[poului]

The mere fact that Al Qur'an is the Word of God, the Message of God revealed to the Prophet of God, makes the whole of Al Qur'an the quote you are asking for.
The mere fact that there is no such thing as Word of God revealed to the Prophet of God or to any other human in any tradition told by humans about the Prophet of God, makes every hadith the quote you want.

So you're saying it is by its very nature self-evident, yet over the course of 114 chapters in the Quran and goodness knows how many pages of hadiths it didn't occur to the almighty creator or any of his devout followers to clarify this in writing with just one sentence?

Somewhat difficult for even a child to swallow, wouldn't you think?

 

[Aldebaran]

So you're saying it is by its very nature self-evident, yet over the course of 114 chapters in the Quran and goodness knows how many pages of hadiths it didn't occur to the almighty creator or any of his devout followers to clarify this in writing with just one sentence?

Somewhat difficult for even a child to swallow, wouldn't you think?

No, it is somewhat difficult for someone who stubbornly wants to refuse to accept that for those who believe in God the Word of God is the Word of God while the words of humans are the words of humans.

The revelation of this Book is from Allah, the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom

I can quote the whole of Al Qur'an but I don't think editor would be pleased I consume his bandwith.

But you tell me why on earth any hadith would have a note explicitly saying "this is a story told by a human about this or that concerning the Prophet (or whatever is told)" while in fact the mere introduction of every hadith by its chain of transmitters states it all by itself. There is no isnad referring back to God.

salaam.

 

[sleaterkinney]

The mere fact that Al Qur'an is the Word of God, the Message of God revealed to the Prophet of God, makes the whole of Al Qur'an the quote you are asking for.
The mere fact that there is no such thing as Word of God revealed to the Prophet of God or to any other human in any tradition told by humans about the Prophet of God, makes every hadith the quote you want.

A child understands that.

salaam.

Not to derail the thread further, but Al Qur'an was written down by humans.

 

[Aldebaran]

Not to derail the thread further, but Al Qur'an was written down by humans.

Of course it was brought into its written form by humans. What is your point?

salaam.

 

[derf]

No, it is somewhat difficult for someone who stubbornly wants to refuse to accept that for those who believe in God the Word of God is the Word of God while the words of humans are the words of humans.
.

The point is my dear brother that some people don't want us to have our faith.
They may not believe but they don't want us to either.

 

[poului]

The revelation of this Book is from Allah, the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom

Thankyou. It would have saved quite a lot of time if you presented that at the beginning.

Now onto the hadith...

But you tell me why on earth any hadith would have a note explicitly saying "this is a story told by a human about this or that concerning the Prophet (or whatever is told)" while in fact the mere introduction of every hadith by its chain of transmitters states it all by itself. There is no isnad referring back to God.

salaam.

Given that many hadiths have been revered by centuries of Muslim tradition as essential additions and, indeed, clarifications of the Quran - in many cases to the death - I would think it pretty damn important for these texts (which are held at least to some significant level of esteem by all believers) to have some kind of crystal clear direction over what parts of it should be followed to the letter and what should not.

This current system of self-evidence that you put forward hasn't exactly produced the best results around the world for the last 1300 years has it not?

 

[poului]

The point is my dear brother that some people don't want us to have our faith.
They may not believe but they don't want us to either.

No, my fellow primate, it is you who doesn't want your extraordinary claims to be questioned to any substantial degree.

 

[danny la rouge]

The point is my dear brother that some people don't want us to have our faith.
They may not believe but they don't want us to either.

If that is a sequitur, it would seem to be an admission that the notion of Holy Books having God as their literal author (though not scribe) stretches the credulity and - by extension - Faith of believers.