Bullying: What can we do about it?

[William of Walworth]

Sorruy to get angry about this, but it;s SIO

tbh, what sparkling does is far more effective in getting actual results than the vengeance ridden nonsense proposed by lmhf and WoW.

Do please explain!

I'm not dissing sparkling's approach. I'm sceptical about it, but I know she does excellent work, and also I'm not sure I read into her post (will reread in a min) that the target would be made to sit with the bully ...

But my poiint was different really. My consistent point is that in offering support and help to a target of bullying, that support and help, however well intended, will not have any successful practical impact for a bullied young person without a figure of authority (or any peers who try to help) acknowleding first that
1. The bullying is happening
2. That it's totally out of order on any level
3. That the target is 'not bringing it on himself' and that it is not 'his fault' for 'making it worse' or for 'not standing up for himself' through finding it difficult/impossible to 'just ignore' the bully. In other words you do not in any way blame the target (or appear to be doing so) ahead of offering help and advice to him.

It seems fucking elementary to me. If the person perceives himself as being bullied, then you start from the working assumption, pending bully-focussed investigation, that he is being, or at least feels as if he is. Assuming, that it is, that the roles are not being reversed by a manipulative and clever bully, who, as I keep saying, can be VERY adept at recasting the target as the 'bully' and themselves as the victim -- far too many people fall for this and may even end up accusing the target of being themselves a bully ... hence the necessity of taking bullying seriously and invetigating it properly, looking into EVERYTHING thats happened up til now. And not sweeping it under the carpet by 'just ignoring it' and/or by only reacting in isolation against only the most recent anger/overreaction/counterproductive reaction from the target.

Any advice' you offer to the target will be meaningless, futile and itself counterproductive without starting from that point IMO.

I know you'd like to cast them into the pits of hades for what they've done but it doesn't actually produce a long term solution, which is the point here.

Bit in bold : Not especially. I just want bullying to be dealt with at source - the source being the bully and only the bully.

I'd also like this constant culture of loading 'advice' onto the heads of targets of past and present bullying without even fucking acknowledging the actual bully's fucking existence (or wilfully treating his behaviour as irrelevant, conspicuously ignoring it, etc.), to STOP. Cos target blaming is shit, and that's what advice directed only at the target without acknowledging and dealing with the bully first, amounts to.

None of this means that genuine, helpful, supportive advice isn't appreciated by targets of bullying, but supportiveness means supportiveness and supotiveness means NOT ignoring the bully, however annoyed you might legitimately get by the target's stubbornness and counterproductive behaviour!

If people are unable to offer advice that doesn't recognise or acknowledge what the bully is up to (or, worse, wilfully refuses to) then that's counterproductive advice.

 

[sparkling]

So these girls had to sit in a conference with the bully and make allowances for her?? IMO thats disgusting and abusive - esp if they are on the verge of eating disorders. The bully should be being placed as far away as possible from other children until she learns she cant behave like that towards people.
I take it the staff who have allowed this to go on for 4 years werent in on it to show them the damage this child was causing other people?

No the girls didn't have to sit in a conference. I can fully understand your anger at such a suggestion especially if your own daughter has been bullied but believe me it really was not like that.

We spent a lot of time preparing people and discussing how the meeting should go. I obviously cannot go into the full details here and maybe I shouldn't have posted at all but just thought I would let people know that this was something that was tried.

The outcome is that at present and its very early days all the girls report feeling much better and that they now feel safe. They are supporting each other and the school has put in other measures of support. At present the bullying has stopped. I think what might happen is that the power base that the bully had may have shifted and if she does this again it will be far easier to identify her and really do something concrete about it. Part of the problem was the secret insidieous nature of the bullying and the allegations and counter allegations which made it extremely hard to do anything. The girl that is most likely to be the ring leader actually complained the most about being made a victim herself so its not so easy as it seems.

But please be assured that we did not make anyone do anything they were not happy to participate in. We are not in the job of either making victims or re victimising anyone.

 

[lights.out.london]

We facilitated a restorative conference involving seven girls and their families and the school at the weekend.

The bullying was affecting their health and some were even developing eating disorders. For some this had gone on for 4 years and had been a blight on their education.

I'm hoping the conference helped. It seemed to have shown the girls just how much everyone was hurting and hopefully it has taken away the power base from the one girl who seemed to be the main instigator. The best we can hope for is that it was the start of improved relations. There is a clear plan of support from lots of different agencies including family members.

Horrible to see such beautiful, talented and articulate girls crippled and blighted by bullying.

Just curious... why did it take four years to help these girls?

 

[pogofish]

Believe me, privately educated kids are just as nasty and adept at bullying as any other. (

Yes, some of the most appalling examples of bullying that I've seen came from the private schools we occasionally had dealings with - to the point where serious assault would be a better description. I once had to deal with a kid who had essentially been crucified & left hanging in a busy pupil-controlled social area for several hours.

The way they dealt with it seemed to be either to ignore it completely or incorporate it into the school ethos & yes, institutional bullying was rife.

Then of course, they could simply kick-out kids on a whim. Most usually the victims IME.

 

[sparkling]

Just curious... why did it take four years to help these girls?

Because the school had tried numerous strategies and at the time they all seemed to have worked but in hindsight the school could see it was just a temporary relief.

The school really had tried as many strategies as they could they only called our service in as a last resort.

Bullying works because it is secretive, because the bully oppresses others into not saying what they see or hear. It works because it is often so difficult for adults to really prove what is going on. It works because of fear. If it were a clear case of A hit B it would be easy to exclude or carry out some kind of discipline as suggested above but the very secretive nature of it left everyone, school, parents and children feeling powerless.

I'm hoping by parents being involved on Saturday they will also be sending a clear message to their children that this needs to stop as well as supporting them.

 

[pogofish]

I just want bullying to be dealt with at source - the source being the bully and only the bully. I'd also like this constant culture of loading 'advice' onto the heads of targets of past and present bullying without even fucking acknowledging the actual bully's fucking existence (or wilfully treating it as irrelevant, conspicuously ignoring it, etc.), to STOP. Cos target blaming is shit, and that's what advice directed only at the target without acknowledging and dealing with the bully first, amounts to.

Exactly!

I know there is no easy way & in some circumstances, there may be other complicating factors but IME most of the methods discussed here, with very few exceptions seem to be deployed as a means of diverting the issue away from the bully & on to the victim. Sometimes to the point of being oppressive & essentially bullying methods themselves - I'm thinking particularly of the "group" methods that unless very carefully managed, can place the victims in an even more isolated position by highlighting all the "norms" they are supposedly deviating from.

 

[JTG]

why do we seem to see bully and bullied as separate groups?

Because I've already said on here that I was both at school and so were many other people. One begets the other imho so we can't just say 'punish the perpetrator and sympathise with the victim' because it isn't always that simple.

 

[pogofish]

One begets the other imho so we can't just say 'punish the perpetrator and sympathise with the victim' because it isn't always that simple.

I'd say that is only the case in a small minority of situations & IME can be indicative of any fair range of other problems as well. Most victims, especially the ones who sustain long term damage from bullying are most likley to be from those who don't fit that thinking.

Then again, there is the situation where the bullied child finally hits/speaks back & gets all that heaped on them big-time, whilst every attempt is made to mollify the poor "victim" & their outraged parents, in a way that was never offered to them. Know all about that myself - bitterly.

 

[JTG]

I'd say that is only the case in a small minority of situations

I'd disagree but there it is.

 

[cyberfairy]

The prevailing opinion on this thread seems to be that bullying can't be stopped so teach the child karate so that they can kick the shit out of the bully, who will then stop bullying that child. And probablgo on to bully another child but hey it's not my child so who gives a fuck?

How about if the child is physically smaller or weaker or just plain doesn't like violence? Or want to be violent? Well he/she possibly just needs to get a thicker skin/fit in/stop being so *insert derogatory term here*/be a bit tougher/stop being so sensitive. It's his/her fault, all kids get bullied. And on and on and on and on.

How about if all teachers said to all the kids that if they experience bullying then they want to hear about it, if the teachers talked about it quite often, if the school had anti-bullying lessons, if they held meetings with the parents of the bully and the bullied and mediated? How about if all of this was actually enshrined in a school policy, we could call it something like 'Every Child Matters'.

How about that?

Btw, my daughter's school does all this and bullying is just as much of an issue as any other school but it doesn't get very far, there are no kids wandering the corridors carrying that weight because if they don't tell, another kid will as they all know that bullying is wrong and that it is their responsibility not to do that.

I agree with you that martial arts won't help-it also makes a bit of a mockery of martial arts as just a way to get back at bullies when it is so much more than that as most martial arts experts will say.
I was bullied hideously all the time as changed schools constantly between different countries and always new girl with no fashion sence or idea of coolness.
I put up with it then as advised, stood up for myself and tried to beat up bully when she went for me. I was a joke-floored on first punch which made me seem even more of an easy target. It takes years to be good at martial arts-it is no an immediate solution.
When girls are being bullied by other girls as in my case, the bully is normally a lot bigger and stronger.
My mum had to be forced back from breaking my bullies arm herself
My bullying happened years ago and I am still without being self-pitying fucked up by it.

I skipped school constantly, told mum school had broken up etc and now at nearly 30, despite having good mates, a degree etc, have an E at GCSE maths as missed school so much I never got to grips with it which despite an English degree is stopping me getting a job!

I worked after school as a teaching assistant as wanted in some way to help bullied kids. I found a kid at age of ten making a non english speaking kid (six) make him give him a blowjob. I was horrified and ran to headmistress but she told me the bully had a hard life himself.

I can understand parents behaviour having an affect on bullies but you cannot excuse it. I have worked in education for ten years now and seen from age of nursery, bullies being sweetly told not to do it again and the bullied kid shaking in a corner expecting repurcussions for 'telling'

I think things are getting better but studying and putting your hand up is still 'not cool' -IMO rewarding kids who do good with cash or cool CDs etc is far better than rewarding 'bad' kids for turning up to a class.

 

[Relahni]

I've read about classes/groups where bullied children go which have been very effective. Most of the kids who attendign the courses have reported a decline in the bullying - some a complete end to it and only a handful have bullying continue. I guess they would be working on their self esteem etc... also belonging to a group (safety in numbers - the fact that they are not alone etc - chance to get things off their chest).

I can see why it works - but of course - it costs money - so would rule out the poorer families.

 

[django]

why do we seem to see bully and bullied as separate groups?

Because I've already said on here that I was both at school and so were many other people. One begets the other imho so we can't just say 'punish the perpetrator and sympathise with the victim' because it isn't always that simple.

I did the same as much as I hate to say it. That said, the lads that were bullying me seemed to come from alright backgrounds (I was close mates with them for years before). I think it boiled down to me been a little quiet (but I agree with Bob Marleys Dad on this) when I moved up to secondary school and the ring leader wanting to show how big and clever he was to his new mates with others following. Towards the end of school it slowed down, I slowly moved away from that circle of mates and they kinda got bored of it.

I have no idea what's the solution is to bullying but I would've really hated to sit down and talk to them about it.

 

[May Kasahara]

why do we seem to see bully and bullied as separate groups?

Because I've already said on here that I was both at school and so were many other people. One begets the other imho so we can't just say 'punish the perpetrator and sympathise with the victim' because it isn't always that simple.

Yeah, I've seen the line blur before; at my school there was a group of really bitchy girls who had a real pack mentality and would taunt/abuse various other kids in our year, utilising all the power of the pack. Midway through the school year they turned on one of their own, the quietest girl in the group, and basically hounded her out of the school. The following year, one of the group who had been at the forefront of this behaviour found exactly the same thing happening to her - her former 'friends' closed ranks and she too ended up changing schools.

I met up with her once outside school and on her own she was completely normal, no power-tripping, no evils. I really think she got swept up in that group dynamic, drunk on the power of fitting in and having security, and thus behaved as she did when with them. In group situations it's often the most 'normal' kids who go the furthest, in my thankfully limited experience at least.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

tbh, what sparkling does is far more effective in getting actual results than the vengeance ridden nonsense proposed by lmhf and WoW.

I know you'd like to cast them into the pits of hades for what they've done but it doesn't actually produce a long term solution, which is the point here.

I didnt say that did I?? I said they should be removed until they had addressed their behaviour via proper counselling.
Most people who cannot attend school due to bullying get absolutely no educational provision unless they return. Whats that if not a pit of Hades?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

No the girls didn't have to sit in a conference. I can fully understand your anger at such a suggestion especially if your own daughter has been bullied but believe me it really was not like that.

We spent a lot of time preparing people and discussing how the meeting should go. I obviously cannot go into the full details here and maybe I shouldn't have posted at all but just thought I would let people know that this was something that was tried.

The outcome is that at present and its very early days all the girls report feeling much better and that they now feel safe. They are supporting each other and the school has put in other measures of support. At present the bullying has stopped. I think what might happen is that the power base that the bully had may have shifted and if she does this again it will be far easier to identify her and really do something concrete about it. Part of the problem was the secret insidieous nature of the bullying and the allegations and counter allegations which made it extremely hard to do anything. The girl that is most likely to be the ring leader actually complained the most about being made a victim herself so its not so easy as it seems.

But please be assured that we did not make anyone do anything they were not happy to participate in. We are not in the job of either making victims or re victimising anyone.

Fair enough.
unfortunately my daughter was told she should sit in 'circle time' with these children where she was supposed to share her feelings.
We refused to allow that since she had no sympathetic or empathetic peer group support and no support from teachers either ( this 'order' was from the LEA)
Fortunately it was dismissed as completely unsuitable by a psychiatrist and a special needs tribunal so yes I am a bit sore about things like that and feel that often its an extremely dangerous strategy which revictimises the bullied and gives the bully more ammunition

 

[JTG]

Yeah, I've seen the line blur before; at my school there was a group of really bitchy girls who had a real pack mentality and would taunt/abuse various other kids in our year, utilising all the power of the pack. Midway through the school year they turned on one of their own, the quietest girl in the group, and basically hounded her out of the school. The following year, one of the group who had been at the forefront of this behaviour found exactly the same thing happening to her - her former 'friends' closed ranks and she too ended up changing schools.

I met up with her once outside school and on her own she was completely normal, no power-tripping, no evils. I really think she got swept up in that group dynamic, drunk on the power of fitting in and having security, and thus behaved as she did when with them. In group situations it's often the most 'normal' kids who go the furthest, in my thankfully limited experience at least.

and this is normal human behaviour unfortunately.

 

[William of Walworth]

Unresolved bullying issues

I just want bullying to be dealt with at source - the source being the bully and only the bully. I'd also like this constant culture of loading 'advice' onto the heads of targets of past and present bullying without even fucking acknowledging the actual bully's fucking existence (or wilfully treating it as irrelevant, conspicuously ignoring it, etc.), to STOP. Cos target blaming is shit, and that's what advice directed only at the target without acknowledging and dealing with the bully first, amounts to.

Exactly!

I know there is no easy way & in some circumstances, there may be other complicating factors but IME most of the methods discussed here, with very few exceptions seem to be deployed as a means of diverting the issue away from the bully & on to the victim. Sometimes to the point of being oppressive & essentially bullying methods themselves - I'm thinking particularly of the "group" methods that unless very carefully managed, can place the victims in an even more isolated position by highlighting all the "norms" they are supposedly deviating from.

Exactly x 2 ...

I really hope Urban people who need to, are reading this thread properly ....

<rest edited because it was a bit of an over specific rant >

 

[Hollis]

Some edit!

 

[pogofish]

and this is normal human behaviour unfortunately.

Does that excuse/legitimise it somehow?

Anyway, schools are about as far from a normal envoronment as you can get.

 

[JTG]

Does that excuse/legitimise it somehow?

did I say that?

 

[William of Walworth]

Some edit!

Tough., I'd have only got people piling onto me yet again if I'd have left it. Self preservation of the type I have (sort of) learnt from people on here, despite a few's constant claims that I never listen to any ...

 

[sparkling]

Fair enough.
unfortunately my daughter was told she should sit in 'circle time' with these children where she was supposed to share her feelings.
We refused to allow that since she had no sympathetic or empathetic peer group support and no support from teachers either ( this 'order' was from the LEA)
Fortunately it was dismissed as completely unsuitable by a psychiatrist and a special needs tribunal so yes I am a bit sore about things like that and feel that often its an extremely dangerous strategy which revictimises the bullied and gives the bully more ammunition

No wonder you felt so raw and incensed by what I said, it must have reminded you of that time.

I think Circle Time is not the place to deal with bullying. To be honest it can provide the bully with an even bigger power base and leave the victim feeling terrorised and that they were in the wrong. Some people think that Circle Time is the answer to everything and its not.

We had parents involved as well as support agencies and the school. There is pressure and support from parents to change this and even though at present the person we strongly suspect of being the bully is still saying she is victim and she may have been at times, (none of the participants were innocent they had all said the nasty thing at times), her parents will have seen just how genuine the other participants were and I know for a fact that her parents want this situation to end.

Also its important to add that Saturday was the start of a process not the end. There is a clear plan of support for the participants which include problem solving, how to deal with conflict, what to do if you think you have a problem with someone etc etc. We also provided a counselling service for those who have been traumatised by this.

All the participants made a committment to end bullying and added their own statements of intent. Now 99% will adhere to this and the 1% who may not will be so obvious that it should be easy for school or police to act accordingly. If you can identify who the bully is and what they are doing you can do something about it.

 

[pembrokestephen]

Oh, fuck. I thought I might have some useful things to say on this thread, especially regarding the collusive nature of the relationships between bullies and bullied, but, having read through it, I don't think I have the patience or tolerance at the moment to deal with the inevitable outrage and self-righteous indignation that I just know my views would spark.

So I'll just shut the fuck up, and...actually, no, I don't think I even want to read the thread.

*buggers off*

 

[nopassaran]

Bullying, and more importantly being complicit in it, is symptomatic of the human condition. I would almost guarantee that the vast majority, if not everyone, who's responded to this thread has either bullied someone at some time, or at the very least has witnessed it happening and chosen to do nothing about it for whatever reason, and there are many of those.

I am now wondering whether it might be a justified response for a bully to be bullied by their victim(s), so they get some 'payback' as it were...hmmm. Or would the bully merely turn around and say that they were being bullied, which would therefore deny the bullied their legitimate right to justice.

Oh by the way I soooo hate it when people always seem to equate bullying with the school, as it happens in every institutional setting.

If people perceived themselves, and were taught from early age to perceive themselves more as individuals with progressive values, rather than needing to identify and seek the acceptance of others, then I suspect this would go a long way eradicating bullying and the oxygen of complicity on which it thrives.

 

[treefrog]

Oh by the way I soooo hate it when people always seem to equate bullying with the school, as it happens in every institutional setting.

I did ask specifically about school bullying though! I work in schools and after a spate of threads about bullying, I thought it would be helpful to find out people's thought on what I could do to help the situation. By the looks of things, the answer is very little...

 

[Gromit]

I did ask specifically about school bullying though! I work in schools and after a spate of threads about bullying, I thought it would be helpful to find out people's thought on what I could do to help the situation. By the looks of things, the answer is very little...

Bring back national service thats what i say! A year in the trenches will teach those bullying kids some respect. Make men out of them! In my day etc.

/end pensioner's rant

 

[JTG]

I did ask specifically about school bullying though! I work in schools and after a spate of threads about bullying, I thought it would be helpful to find out people's thought on what I could do to help the situation. By the looks of things, the answer is very little...

Nah, you can do loads. But I honestly think it requires you to take things case by case in how you deal with the victims and the perpetrators.

That's not helpful (again) but you're a wise person and I'm glad you're making the effort to think about this stuff, 'cos you'll be good at it

 

[nopassaran]

I did ask specifically about school bullying though! I work in schools and after a spate of threads about bullying, I thought it would be helpful to find out people's thought on what I could do to help the situation. By the looks of things, the answer is very little...

Well then, regrettably, you're clearly not looking at the bigger picture.

HOwever, if you want to look at strategies to deal with, or should I say, manage, the problem, there is a sizeable amount of literature and evidence based examples of good practice out there. So you might want to take a trip down to your local university library and also try getting advice from some of the specialist groups and organisations that concern themsleves with anti-bullying strategies.

Good luck

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I haven't got anything useful or constructive to add, but just to say to any parents out there whose children are being bullied, don't be fobbed off by the school or education authorities, and if your child is assaulted, don't let the school deal with it, take it to the police.

I was chatting to someone a couple of weeks ago over a few drinks, as you do, and it came out that he'd been bullied at school and it still affected him, affected his self-confidence and all that, even though he's now 37.

So don't think, Oh, they'll leave school, they'll grow out of it, they'll get over it, because that's not necessarily the case, although having their problem taken seriously, and being dealt with by the appropriate authorities (i.e. police for assaults, not the school) might help in the future.

I was bullied and harassed at work some years ago, and it took me a few years to get over that. Even now, I hate the idea of office politics.

 

[nopassaran]

I was bullied and harassed at work some years ago, and it took me a few years to get over that. Even now, I hate the idea of office politics.

I totally agree, but I also think it's really important to point out that office politics mirror those of the playground.