Bullying: What can we do about it?

[jæd]

Is it not advisable anymore for the kids to hit back at the bullies? -- physically.

This is what always seemed to happen in TV progs when I was younger.

(This post is quite serious.)

Either that making sure that the child being bullied knows it will be ok if the "grass". When I was being bullied when I was at school it was quite a revelation that (a) hitting back works and (b) grassing the bullies also works.

The teachers at the school didn't actually do much, but the bullies were more afraid it would get back to their parents...

Half the problem is that teachers try and avoid the problem. It should be tackled head on, and the kids told that they shouldn't be afraid to "grass" up bullies...

 

[jæd]

England seems to be particularly bad when it comes to bullying compared to other countries, I'm not sure why that is though...

I think its the "Conspiracy of Silence". Everyone one knows there's a problem but won't do anything because they don't want to be seen as a "grass"...

 

[girasol]

I don't think that's what it is though, enough people complain to their teachers about bullying but it seems that nothing gets done.

Children who bully often have a reason for doing so, they're only children after all and are only repeating what they see at home, maybe that's the problem, no one tackles that at all, they just say 'you can't bully, it's bad', end of conversation...

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

is home ed the answer though?

i know of a woman who home educates all three of her kids, and they have had difficulty socialising with other kids

Really? This is the exuse which is always bandied about as soon as home ed is mentioned "these kids have trouble socialising"
I always think that people who post these sort of things have made up "this woman I know..." because Ive not met a home educated child yet who isnt extremely sociable unless they have autistic difficulties and even then their socialisation is better than it would be in school because its able to be on their terms.
Kids will have difficulty socialising if you keep them in the house all day and never take them anywhere.
My kids mix several times a week with a large group of home educated kids of all ages ( so not just confined to one narrow group defined by the year of their birth)and adults both at groups and out in the community. My kids are far far more confident and happy than they were when forced to attend a building all day with adults telling the, what to do all the time, telling them when they could do every aspect of what they did and learned... even down to when they are allowed to take a piss!

They also do various sports activities,youth clubs etc all with children who go to school They play out in the street with kids who spend all day in school. They use the library independently, can order books themselves, ask to use the PC's ( and staff have commented how few children are brave enough to approach them and discuss their needs with the staff)
They dont exist in a bubble. Its the great home ed myth- they wont know how to socialise.... rubbish

I reckon my kids get more opportunities to socialise now they arent restricted not less and no they dont get bullied.
They learn how to get along with other kids and adults at their own pace and on their own terms, if someone pisses them off ( like in adult life) they can choose to ignore that person or withdraw from the situation a little, they learn to negotiate, share and reach workable solutions - just as you would in adult life.

Can you give me any examples at all of where children in schools are able or even allowed to do that because I havent experienced any at all. Its 'tough we arent playing musical classrooms, they will have to stay together in the same room. building all day every day, same playground, same space- even if the bully is repeatedly assaluting them- come and tell us when it happens - well yes, its too late when its happened the bully is king all over again.
Fuck all ever happens to bullies in state schools and thats amn absolute fact. Schools are too scared of the appeals process which allows them to return no matter what they do to their victim.

 

[Jonti]

When we were doing the rounds of secondary schools for our eldest, one headmaster impressed me greatly at his presentation.

"There is no bullying in this school!" he announced sternly. "If pupils commit assault; it is dealt with as assault; if they steal, it is dealt with as theft. Not bullying. Assault. Theft. I won't have assaults and thieving in my school."

 

[Fruitloop]

Really? This is the exuse which is always bandied about as soon as home ed is mentioned "these kids have trouble socialising"
I always think that people who post these sort of things have made up "this woman I know..." because Ive not met a home educated child yet who isnt extremely sociable unless they have autistic difficulties and even then their socialisation is better than it would be in school because its able to be on their terms....

I think you are spot on. A lot of my time at school was an experience of soul-crushing tedium, punctuated by brief intervals of barbarism. I missed out three years of it between the age of 11 and 15 with no educational ill-effect, and still carried on socialising with my home-ed friends when I went back to school for A-levels - most of whom were more well-adjusted than the people I encountered who had been at school continuously.

 

[madzone]

Really? This is the exuse which is always bandied about as soon as home ed is mentioned "these kids have trouble socialising"
I always think that people who post these sort of things have made up "this woman I know..." because Ive not met a home educated child yet who isnt extremely sociable unless they have autistic difficulties and even then their socialisation is better than it would be in school because its able to be on their terms.

Agreed. All the home ed kids I've met have been mature beyond their years and very well adjusted.

 

[Fruitloop]

A big part of it I reckon is that a lot of kids have too much contact with their peer group, and too little with other age-groups. Young peer groups left almost entirely to their own devices tend to go a bit Lord of the Flies, IME.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Does it consist of carrying out "full and thoroughgoing" investigations which invariably "find no evidence of bullying"?

That was my experience of it all yes... My eldest was bullied in primary eventually by most of her year group, she was telling people she was being bullied constantly ( as she was told she should) it was acceptable to call her names and make her feel like shite
the headmaster said 'its her perception of the situation, shes not being bullied' so essentially she couldnt win.

 

[madzone]

That was my experience of it all yes... My eldest was bullied in primary eventually by most of her year group, she was telling people she was being bullied constantly ( as she was told she should) it was acceptable to call her names and make her feel like shite
the headmaster said 'its her perception of the situation, shes not being bullied' so essentially she couldnt win.

The teacher we spoke to yesterday was hinting at pretty much the same thing Trying to explain that allowing the bullies to get away with targetting an individual unchallenged gives the message to the rest of the class that abusing one individual is acceptable went right over her head.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

youre right. I firmly believe it was not dealing with issues that the teachers defined as 'petty' ( but were deeply hurtful to a child) led to everyone seeing her as a legitimate target for winding up, poking fun at, pushing,hitting, kicking etc.
I even went in and said "you believe its legit for these chidlren to use a child SEN to bully them" and their attitude was " we treat all equally here, she will get no special treatment"

 

[Pingu]

This response probably isnt going to be very helpful (or popular)

I was bullied for a short time until I lost my rag and kicked the shit out of the guy who was doing the bullying. After a couple of others got a kicking the bullying stopped.

so not eaxactly a socially "right on" approach but it worked for me. I dudnt turn into a bully btw.

from my limited exposure to the current situation I am guessing that the lower level of control and power a school has these dasy doenst help the situation. teachers have less tools at their disposal to deal with stuff these days. The kids "know their rights" and too much time is spoent making sure that no rights or regs are breached before any action can be taken.

 

[madzone]

This response probably isnt going to be very helpful (or popular)

I was bullied for a short time until I lost my rag and kicked the shit out of the guy who was doing the bullying. After a couple of others got a kicking the bullying stopped.

so not eaxactly a socially "right on" approach but it worked for me. I dudnt turn into a bully btw.

I'd agree but for what happned to TA's daughter when she fought back.

 

[Pingu]

I'd agree but for what happned to TA's daughter when she fought back.

indded and tbh every situation is different. for me it worked becasue I had nothing to lose (in my 11 year old eyes) so just went for it - totally ( well as totally as an 11 year old can). it could have gone the other way very easily too with me getting the kicking but luckily for me it didnt.

 

[jæd]

I'd agree but for what happned to TA's daughter when she fought back.

Every situation is different, and didn't her daughter go up against the offspring of a copper... ?

One turning point for me was watching a guy being picked on all afternoon by one bully... And then at the end of the classroom he just turned and punched the shit out of the bully in front the teacher, and calmly sat down. The teacher had seen all the bullying going on during her lesson, and didn't punish the bullied kid... (She didn't give much assistance to the bully who was in a corner, completely demoralised (and beaten up) ).

 

[May Kasahara]

My kids mix several times a week with a large group of home educated kids of all ages ( so not just confined to one narrow group defined by the year of their birth)and adults both at groups and out in the community. ...They also do various sports activities,youth clubs etc all with children who go to school They play out in the street with kids who spend all day in school. ....I reckon my kids get more opportunities to socialise now they arent restricted not less and no they dont get bullied.
They learn how to get along with other kids and adults at their own pace and on their own terms, if someone pisses them off ( like in adult life) they can choose to ignore that person or withdraw from the situation a little, they learn to negotiate, share and reach workable solutions - just as you would in adult life.

It's good to hear this, as a friend of mine has just started home-schooling her three boys and this has been exactly her experience so far. I would think different people's experiences might depend a bit on how active the local home ed group is, but hers sounds a lot like yours - her kids have already taken part in an amazing range of activities, far far better than anything I remember being on offer when I was at school. She can hang different subject areas around things she knows they're interested in, rather than teaching maths, science, literacy etc. discretely, which obviously helps to keep their interest, and as you say they learn to get along with kids and adults of all ages. I was really interested to hear about it tbh, as the direction school culture has been sent in by government and management(tests, tests, tests, seemingly little emphasis on learning) is profoundly depressing and the thought of what they might be like when I eventually have my own kids education to think of makes me very depressed.

My friend decided to home-school her kids simply because she felt they would gain more btw, not because her local school was particularly bad or they were being bullied or anything.

 

[Pingu]

When we were doing the rounds of secondary schools for our eldest, one headmaster impressed me greatly at his presentation.

"There is no bullying in this school!" he announced sternly. "If pupils commit assault; it is dealt with as assault; if they steal, it is dealt with as theft. Not bullying. Assault. Theft. I won't have assaults and thieving in my school."

again i have limited knowledge of current schools set up etc but this is an approach that just might work...

 

[Mungy]

i was bullied in and out of school. i endured 2 years of physical and verbal without a murmur. i used to sit through lessons considering committing suicide. then one day i lost it and chucked my desk a someone and stormed out and grassed em all up. they threated to kick my head in but never did.

the next 2 years it was low level name calling, but i got accepted into one of the "harder" groups and the physical stuff stopped, though even they used to take the piss out of me all the time.

 

[Belushi]

I went to five different secondary schools, by the time I'd got to the fourth I'd learnt that first cunt that tries anything hit them with a chair, dont back down to anybody even if they're twice your size.

It meant I got written of as a troublemaker but at least I didnt get picked on

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

My friend decided to home-school her kids simply because she felt they would gain more btw, not because her local school was particularly bad or they were being bullied or anything.

Cool! My kids have done more hands on stuff in the past 3 months than they did in school too. The opportunities are brilliant thanks to committed people who take the time to help organise stuff ( it works as a co-operative effort here). Mine have been two two historic re-enactments at a castle and learned about the civil war,visited a couple of other castles from the same period done loads of 'hands on' stuff at the science museum and hatched stick insects thanks to another home edder whos donated the eggs.. They cook regularly etc the things they learn are endless and I fail to see why something is considered essential just because the national curriculum dictates that they must learn XY or Z by a pre set target age or they are a failiure

Although we did remove the younger because the school couldnt and wasnt meeting his needs ( and had already fucked my eldest right up) and my middle DD wanted to come out of school because she was sick of the bullying we dont see it is 'running away' as someone further up the thread accused those who chose home ed of.

We also have made concious choice to reject the 'test, teach, test, teach' culture in schools and allow them time to learn and develop their own interests.
Thats not to say we dont ensure they are learning maths and english because we feel those things are important but we want them to have a rich and fulfilling childhood where they can learn and emerge properly 'educated'
Its thrilling watching the changes in them. Mine have certainly gained

 

[bmd]

The prevailing opinion on this thread seems to be that bullying can't be stopped so teach the child karate so that they can kick the shit out of the bully, who will then stop bullying that child. And probably go on to bully another child but hey it's not my child so who gives a fuck?

How about if the child is physically smaller or weaker or just plain doesn't like violence? Or want to be violent? Well he/she possibly just needs to get a thicker skin/fit in/stop being so *insert derogatory term here*/be a bit tougher/stop being so sensitive. It's his/her fault, all kids get bullied. And on and on and on and on.

How about if all teachers said to all the kids that if they experience bullying then they want to hear about it, if the teachers talked about it quite often, if the school had anti-bullying lessons, if they held meetings with the parents of the bully and the bullied and mediated? How about if all of this was actually enshrined in a school policy, we could call it something like 'Every Child Matters'.

How about that?

Btw, my daughter's school does all this and bullying is just as much of an issue as any other school but it doesn't get very far, there are no kids wandering the corridors carrying that weight because if they don't tell, another kid will as they all know that bullying is wrong and that it is their responsibility not to do that.

 

[LDR]

I think the buddy system can work quite well where a responsible popular child is assigned a younger child to mentor and look after.

I appreciate it won't work all the time but it's better than this self defence bollocks. I found when I was bullied it was usually more than one person plus I was significantly smaller and weaker than the bullies.

The way I tended to deal with the hassle was to hang out with the rough big kids and make them laugh. It helped a wee bit but I found playing truant was the real answer.

 

[thought]

I think zero tollerance on harrasement of any kind should be the answer.. And that includes teachers who's teaching style includes sarcasm and bullying.

There are a lot of good books on bullying in schools.. I just think few teachers read them.

I feel that the most important thing for a school to be should be a loving and safe working enviroment. Every child will almost teach them selves, give the correct security and resources.

 

[sparkling]

We facilitated a restorative conference involving seven girls and their families and the school at the weekend.

The bullying was affecting their health and some were even developing eating disorders. For some this had gone on for 4 years and had been a blight on their education.

I'm hoping the conference helped. It seemed to have shown the girls just how much everyone was hurting and hopefully it has taken away the power base from the one girl who seemed to be the main instigator. The best we can hope for is that it was the start of improved relations. There is a clear plan of support from lots of different agencies including family members.

Horrible to see such beautiful, talented and articulate girls crippled and blighted by bullying.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

So these girls had to sit in a conference with the bully and make allowances for her?? IMO thats disgusting and abusive - esp if they are on the verge of eating disorders. The bully should be being placed as far away as possible from other children until she learns she cant behave like that towards people.
I take it the staff who have allowed this to go on for 4 years werent in on it to show them the damage this child was causing other people?

 

[William of Walworth]

When we were doing the rounds of secondary schools for our eldest, one headmaster impressed me greatly at his presentation.

"There is no bullying in this school!" he announced sternly. "If pupils commit assault; it is dealt with as assault; if they steal, it is dealt with as theft. Not bullying. Assault. Theft. I won't have assaults and thieving in my school."

If there'd been a policy like this at my school and it had been enforced, I'd have had a lot less unhappy and bullied an adolescence.

Zero Fucking Tolerence, anywhere.

Bullies are total cunts and target blamers, whether actual or just in effect, are worse. Bullied children and people who still have unresolved bullying issues as adults** constantly get heaped with 'advice' (ie orders/intructions to 'just ignore them' etc.) while the actual bullies (who are often very very adept at portraying themselves as the target and painting the real target as the 'bully' ) go uncriticised and unpunished and even, at times, treated as irrelevant.

**Very much including myself, I know that, but still!

If the excellent Bully On Line site hasn't yet been mentioned/cited on this thread, it is an excellent resource.

 

[William of Walworth]

The prevailing opinion on this thread seems to be that bullying can't be stopped so teach the child karate so that they can kick the shit out of the bully, who will then stop bullying that child. And probably go on to bully another child but hey it's not my child so who gives a fuck?

How about if the child is physically smaller or weaker or just plain doesn't like violence? Or want to be violent? Well he/she possibly just needs to get a thicker skin/fit in/stop being so *insert derogatory term here*/be a bit tougher/stop being so sensitive. It's his/her fault, all kids get bullied. And on and on and on and on.

How about if all teachers said to all the kids that if they experience bullying then they want to hear about it, if the teachers talked about it quite often, if the school had anti-bullying lessons, if they held meetings with the parents of the bully and the bullied and mediated? How about if all of this was actually enshrined in a school policy, we could call it something like 'Every Child Matters'.

How about that?

Btw, my daughter's school does all this and bullying is just as much of an issue as any other school but it doesn't get very far, there are no kids wandering the corridors carrying that weight because if they don't tell, another kid will as they all know that bullying is wrong and that it is their responsibility not to do that.

Excellent post. Particularly the stuff about the dead end and nonsense of just 'advising' (ordering) a child to learn to stand up for himself, learn to fight back, learn to kick the shit out of them etc. -- some children are either physically or psychologically incapable of being violent, I know I was.

Instead, as in the rest oif BMD's excellent post, let the target of bullying feel supported as an unconditional starting point. That involves acknowledging, criticisng and addressing the bully's behaviour FIRST, not 'just ignoring it' and 'advising' (ordering) the target to.

Any failings/drawbacks/shortcomings in the target's response that can legitimately be gently criticised, can only then be addressed. After the bully's arsehole behaviour is acknowledged, dealt with, tackled and seen to be tackled, only then can the target's possibly counterproductive responses be successfully addressed -- without the target feeling as if the bully is being ignored, uncriticised and unpunished, and that he himself is the focus for all the blame, 'advice', criticsms. This is essential however much the actual bully may try and portray himself as the target and paint the real target as the 'bully'.

Sorry to repeat that point but IMO it's a point ESSENTIAL in terms of understanding what advice works and what doesn't.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

well said william
I also dont really understand why there is a mentality which says these children HAVE to stay together and therefore the bullied person should give a bit and learn to cope and handle the pressure from the bully ( who usually is worse when sanctions have been applied, if not immediately then later)

I firmly believe Bullying should be cause for excluding that child from school until they learn they have to take respopnsibility for their behaviour( and that should be provided in specialist centres with therapists etc) if that blights their education, tough shit. Its all they are doing to the child they are laying into

 

[J77]

So these girls had to sit in a conference with the bully and make allowances for her?? IMO thats disgusting and abusive - esp if they are on the verge of eating disorders. The bully should be being placed as far away as possible from other children until she learns she cant behave like that towards people.
I take it the staff who have allowed this to go on for 4 years werent in on it to show them the damage this child was causing other people?

I think it would be very productive to get a bully to sit in alone with his/her "victims" (although was this the case in the above post, anyway...)

The main reason being that it takes the bully away from their circle of friends, who they are trying to impress, and allows them to actually talk to their "victim" without them, seeming, to look bad in front of their friends.

I would imagine that most cases of bullying are because the bully wants to look big in front of their mates -- always is the case ime.

If this isn't hte case, the bully is quite mentally unstable/sadist, which I very much doubt is the norm.

 

[JTG]

tbh, what sparkling does is far more effective in getting actual results than the vengeance ridden nonsense proposed by lmhf and WoW.

I know you'd like to cast them into the pits of hades for what they've done but it doesn't actually produce a long term solution, which is the point here.