Brutality in Gaza

[ViolentPanda]

I must have missed when they put the US Military on the "Terrorist" list

Check out Amnesty International's archives.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have family who have had their homes robbed by foreign occupiers in recent memory, in a land not too far away from Israel...but I don't run around whinging and complaining and complicitly supporting acts of terror VP.

So you've never put a few bob in the box at the barbers or the caff when someone in the G-C community was collecting for the PKK?
You must be the only G-C I've ever heard of who didn't, then.

I don't see the validity in lending support to groups that advocate violence. So why do you have such a soft line towards those that do and use your invective purely for Israel?

A few points:
1) I support many groups that advocate violence as a solution. I've even worked for one that practiced violence as a method of social control. Life is violence, the aim of the game is to avoid the practice of violence as often as possible.
2) I don't reserve my invective "solely for Israel". I've got a lot of time for Israelis as a people. I do, however, reserve the right to direct my invective at any state (such as the state of Israel, or Russia, or Colombia, or the UK etc etc) which lays claim to the status of a democracy, and yet doesn't practice the ideals, ideology or politics of a democracy.
3) I don't have a soft line towards groups that advocate violence, or those who practice it, what I do insist on doing is weighing whether that group had any serious alternative that they could have used other than violence. If they had no viable alternative then I'll give them condtional support, the conditionality being in whether they take up serious opportunities for peace. That's why I supported Sinn Fein, and why I'll support Hamas, and why I'd support any Israeli political party that made a serious and credible attempt to resolve the Israel/Palestine problem equitably.

 

[DexterTCN]

See ya, wouldn't want to be ya!

However, the best quote from this thread so far has to be...

No, fuck you fucko.

The Middle East forum. It does what it says on the tin, it blows up.

 

[Pete the Greek]

So you've never put a few bob in the box at the barbers or the caff when someone in the G-C community was collecting for the PKK?
You must be the only G-C I've ever heard of who didn't, then.

A few points:
1) I support many groups that advocate violence as a solution. I've even worked for one that practiced violence as a method of social control. Life is violence, the aim of the game is to avoid the practice of violence as often as possible.
2) I don't reserve my invective "solely for Israel". I've got a lot of time for Israelis as a people. I do, however, reserve the right to direct my invective at any state (such as the state of Israel, or Russia, or Colombia, or the UK etc etc) which lays claim to the status of a democracy, and yet doesn't practice the ideals, ideology or politics of a democracy.
3) I don't have a soft line towards groups that advocate violence, or those who practice it, what I do insist on doing is weighing whether that group had any serious alternative that they could have used other than violence. If they had no viable alternative then I'll give them condtional support, the conditionality being in whether they take up serious opportunities for peace. That's why I supported Sinn Fein, and why I'll support Hamas, and why I'd support any Israeli political party that made a serious and credible attempt to resolve the Israel/Palestine problem equitably.

On the one hand you support violent groups that advocate violence, yet on the other you hate the UK for not staying consistent with democratic values. Very contradictory. I fail to see where you are coming from. How can you be a vocal supporter of democracy, yet support corrupt, violent thugs like Hamas? Bizarre.

I'd also like to ask how you would like the UK to act, seeing as it fails to live up to democratic values. How would you like to see Britain go? As a nation that rolls over and takes it up the arse presumably. In real-politik, harsh and awkward decisions have to be made, or things become very difficult.

Have you not stopped to think that most of the labour politicians down the last century have gone into politics and parliament with lofty values and crusades, only to get into government where the realisation of what it's like behind the scenes comes home to roost. Us plebs outside of the Number 10 meetings and Mi5 and Mi6 briefs have no idea what's going on. There's only a handful of people in politics who really know what sort of decision making scenarios they are up against, as representatives for Britain. And they were all once bearded demonstrating lefties - turned realist centre-right wingers.

You are a clever bloke, you must see this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the one hand you support violent groups that advocate violence, yet on the other you hate the UK for not staying consistent with democratic values. Very contradictory. I fail to see where you are coming from. How can you be a vocal supporter of democracy, yet support corrupt, violent thugs like Hamas? Bizarre.

You miss the point entirely.
IF a nation-state lays claim to being a democracy, then it obligates itself to practice those policies that comprise "democratic government". If you talk the talk you have to walk the walk too.
On the other hand, "violent groups" tend to at least have enough integrity not to pretend toward one position while practicing another, and their violence tends to be limited to achieving certain stipulated objectives, rather than at social control.

I'd also like to ask how you would like the UK to act, seeing as it fails to live up to democratic values. How would you like to see Britain go? As a nation that rolls over and takes it up the arse presumably. In real-politik, harsh and awkward decisions have to be made, or things become very difficult.

I'd like to see all countries that claim to be demcracies, act democratically, in their foreign as well as their "home" policy. I don't wish states (if they have to exist) to be supine, I wish them to be honest, realpolitik or no.

Have you not stopped to think that most of the labour politicians down the last century have gone into politics and parliament with lofty values and crusades, only to get into government where the realisation of what it's like behind the scenes comes home to roost. Us plebs outside of the Number 10 meetings and Mi5 and Mi6 briefs have no idea what's going on. There's only a handful of people in politics who really know what sort of decision making scenarios they are up against, as representatives for Britain. And they were all once bearded demonstrating lefties - turned realist centre-right wingers.

You are a clever bloke, you must see this.

You say all this as if you actually believe what you've written, that the "rulers" and the intelligence service somehow practice truths beneficial to Britain, rather than practicing whatever benefits their own cliques, sponsors and beneficiaries, and if there are a few minor benefits for the masses, well hey, that'll keep them content for a few more minutes/hours/days, won't it?

All a rightwinger is, is a leftwinger who's decided to enjoy being buttfucked by "the system" rather than resenting it.

 

[Pete the Greek]

You miss the point entirely.
IF a nation-state lays claim to being a democracy, then it obligates itself to practice those policies that comprise "democratic government". If you talk the talk you have to walk the walk too.
On the other hand, "violent groups" tend to at least have enough integrity not to pretend toward one position while practicing another, and their violence tends to be limited to achieving certain stipulated objectives, rather than at social control.

I'd like to see all countries that claim to be demcracies, act democratically, in their foreign as well as their "home" policy. I don't wish states (if they have to exist) to be supine, I wish them to be honest, realpolitik or no.


You say all this as if you actually believe what you've written, that the "rulers" and the intelligence service somehow practice truths beneficial to Britain, rather than practicing whatever benefits their own cliques, sponsors and beneficiaries, and if there are a few minor benefits for the masses, well hey, that'll keep them content for a few more minutes/hours/days, won't it?

All a rightwinger is, is a leftwinger who's decided to enjoy being buttfucked by "the system" rather than resenting it.

I'm going out in a bit, but I'll get back to the above - I need to put you straight on a couple of bits.

Good comments amongst it though.

 

[moono]

Wey-hey, the Greek is back !

Oh dear, oh dear, catch this one-

Pete the Greek;

In all honesty, I think thay Israel is rubbing its hands at the way the palestinians are tearing eachother apart..

 

[nino_savatte]

It's hilarious! You've made sweeping judgements and assumptions on what I think about the ME situ and my views on the moral rights of Israeli incursions which are entirely baseless....and then you finish your nonsensical tirade with the classic telling off "don't put words in my mouth"

!!!

My name aint Kettle, I aint black, so fuck off potsy.

Now what were you saying to me on another thread?

It seems to me that you don't practice what you preach...isn't that right, trollboy?

You know something, I'm beginning to twig who you really are.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm going out in a bit, but I'll get back to the above - I need to put you straight on a couple of bits.

Good comments amongst it though.

Take your time, pal.

 

[nino_savatte]

However, the best quote from this thread so far has to be...



The Middle East forum. It does what it says on the tin, it blows up.

Innit. They're breeding like cockroaches around here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Take your time, pal.

Mmmm, I'm waiting for him to "put me straight". It'll be interesting to see whether, just for once, he can transcend the usual ahistoric nonsense he spews and actually "land a punch".

I'm not holding my breath, based on past form.