Brown Plan for 'British Jobs for British Workers'

[Fruitloop]

Have a read of The Grapes of Wrath. It's all in there.

 

[Brainaddict]

the real problem is "british jobs for british workers" in brownspeak means exactly "going to be forced by private companies into jobs they just won't be able to undertake, a real neo-liberal ramp"

Yes indeed. The neo-liberals response to accusations of coercion is usually something like 'but jobs give people dignity'.

Well if that's true I want to be able to choose whether I have dignity or not

 

[Random]

There are one million NEETS (not in education, employment or training) under 18 in the country and rising, as you can't get benefit if you are not in any of the above, its likely they are being subsidised by their probably poor parents, et or engaged in 'other' activities. Isn't this a scandal, shouldn't there be campaigns, marches, etc, about this.

sure, but under 18s are, by definition, politically powerless.

 

[Fruitloop]

Dignity my ringpiece.

 

[poster342002]

Yes indeed. The neo-liberals response to accusations of coercion is usually something like 'but jobs give people dignity'.

Well if that's true I want to be able to choose whether I have dignity or not

A well-paid job with reasonable working conditions where you are treated with respect by the employer probably does give people more dignity. Trouble is, that's not what the neo-liberals are offering.

 

[treelover]

Dennis, just exactly what do you mean by the 'super-oppressed', to me its sounds nasty, patronising and speaks volumes about the left's workerist ideology. An ideology which clearly sees 'the worker' as more deserving of support than say, disabled people,


disgraceful...

To qualify _ I mean your usual lead in about the 'left not caring about the super-oppressed' - not your other comments about the disabled - but do you really think the present TUC 'leadership' is good for much at all? it would need a building of the genuine left you spend your time attacking to change that leadership

 

[Brainaddict]

A well-paid job with reasonable working conditions where you are treated with respect by the employer probably does give people more dignity. Trouble is, that's not what the neo-liberals are offering.

And change that to *some* people. People are different y'know. I tend to find the most dignity in being free to do what I want with my time, which sometimes includes making positive contributions to society that don't involve the creation of phoney 'wealth'.
As for where my money comes from - I couldn't give a fuck if I'm earning it myself or not, as long as I have enough to live on.

 

[Wolveryeti]

A well-paid job with reasonable working conditions where you are treated with respect by the employer probably does give people more dignity. Trouble is, that's not what the neo-liberals are offering.

Everybody has to eat some shit when they're starting out in a particular career path, unless they're very lucky.

When looking at the type of jobs they're offering you can either shriek "McJob" or you can look at it as a stepping stone to better things, which is in fact what many of these jobs are, or have the potential to be, given a bit of creativity.

The difference between the immigrants who are doing these jobs and the Brits who think they're too good for them lies in ambition.

 

[treelover]

So you think coercion is OK then?

When looking at the type of jobs they're offering you can either shriek "McJob" or you can look at it as a stepping stone to better things, which is in fact what many of these jobs are, or have the potential to be, given a bit of creativity.

The difference between the immigrants who are doing these jobs and the Brits who think they're too good for them lies in ambition.

 

[Wolveryeti]

So you think coercion is OK then?

I'm lost, sorry. Coercion

 

[likesfish]

go back to school college or get a job

if your not disabled no real excuse for being long term unemployed a kick up the back side is probably what you need.

 

[Fruitloop]

Everybody has to eat some shit when they're starting out in a particular career path, unless they're very lucky.

When looking at the type of jobs they're offering you can either shriek "McJob" or you can look at it as a stepping stone to better things, which is in fact what many of these jobs are, or have the potential to be, given a bit of creativity.

The difference between the immigrants who are doing these jobs and the Brits who think they're too good for them lies in ambition.

Ah, the myth of social mobility. We just go round and round these old ideological chestnuts don't we.

 

[treelover]

Being forced to take these jobs is 'coercion', is it not?

I'm lost, sorry. Coercion

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Yeah, but, to eb quite frank, the liberal-left does a very good job of GIVING that impression of itself a lot of the time by dint of it's deafening silence on the sort of issues treelover mentions.

So what? What's the relevance?

The purpose of going down that route is just to (a) call anyone disagreeing with the anti-immigration argument "liberal left" (b) abuse them for that and (c) draw attention away from the paucity of the original argument by turning it into a "state of the 'left' today" one. It happens on every thread on the subject, too.

For that matter I don't think the "liberal left" as the term is used here, i.e. left-leaning but basically neo-liberal, give that impression, unless one deliberately wants to take that impression, I think they do a fair job of making the right noises about a bunch of issues but not taking much action on any of them. But that's irrelevant here.

 

[treelover]

It's because of the total lack of support for such issues, if it was one amongst many that then got its fair share of publicity, interest, etc, then no problem, but it doesn't, the people I campaign with and for are largely invisible.

The purpose of going down that route is just to (a) call anyone disagreeing with the anti-immigration argument "liberal left" (b) abuse them for that and (c) draw attention away from the paucity of the original argument by turning it into a "state of the 'left' today" one. It happens on every thread on the subject, too.

 

[Wolveryeti]

Being forced to take these jobs is 'coercion', is it not?

What's being talked about in the OP is a carrot, not a stick!

 

[Wolveryeti]

Ah, the myth of social mobility. We just go round and round these old ideological chestnuts don't we.

It's a myth is it? Look around you. How many people do you know who went to universities, are successful in jobs, but whose background is resolutely working class?

I would feel quite patronised if I was working class and someone was talking down about me like you are implying that I don't have the ability to improve my lot.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It's because of the total lack of support for such issues, if it was one amongst many that then got its fair share of publicity, interest, etc, then no problem, but it doesn't, the people I campaign with and for are largely invisible.

Similarly, every time the above "you're all wiberals" statement comes up, it is then responded to with a load of evidence about how, yeah, actually people do argue about and act on loads of other issues (which is then ignored). Which serves the purpose of distraction I suppose.

 

[tbaldwin]

whats colour got to do with this. this proposal says that say a british worker of whatever ethnicity will be helped into work here when a polish worker will not. that is illegal, and racist

Whats colour got to do with it Jim? It was you who said it was rascist......Which makes me think your probably some kind of far right nutjob, trying to be funny......And failing....

 

[tbaldwin]

Oh change the fucking record. This is what gets trotted - sorry - out every time somebody disagrees with an anti-immigration POV. "Oh the LIBERALS" (i.e. you lot who disagree with me) "only care about FOREIGNERS." It's been pointed out numerous times that this is utter cock.

ETA: okay, that was a bit aggressive, but it pisses me off, sorry.

For me the problem is not about Liberals only caring about foreigners.
It is the lack of understanding of who really benefits from migration. If you really did care about foreigners, why just care about the ones who come to rich countries and not those left behind???

 

[dennisr]

Dennis, just exactly what do you mean by the 'super-oppressed', to me its sounds nasty, patronising and speaks volumes about the left's workerist ideology. An ideology which clearly sees 'the worker' as more deserving of support than say, disabled people,


disgraceful...

oh fuck off you moaning old fool - the use of the term was a piss-take of your own take. personally i think most folk have more in common than seperate - that includes 'foreign' folk - not just those with disablilities.

If you want to ming on trying to put words in somebodies mouth that were never there - try someone else - i'll bite you back.

its the politics of 'oh, poor me, no body cares - you only care about THEM' that is a fecking disgrace. So stop coming over all father superior pal

The vast, vast majority of us are all in the same boat - its the idiots who think they are somehow 'different' (weather from a position od 'superiority' or 'i'm more oppressed than you are' that really piss me off - that and moaning old 'its all hopeless' whingers, cheers

(ps my own personal record actively involved in both disability and welfare rights would probably come as a big shock to you - try sorting out who your real enemies are)

 

[treelover]

Stop shooting the messenger, You can bluster as much as you like, and its not about individuals, I am aware you do good stuff, its about a culture of neglect. So, can you provide me with eveidence of how the left in all its persuasions, or at least your party, campaigned against the Welfare Reform Act, (a neo-liberal reform which incidentally is partly driven by the effects of mass migration) dates, times, actions. Oh, and just the WRA, not the NHS, Housing etc, just the bit that affects this bit of what you call a 'layer' of society.

 

[dennisr]

Stop shooting the messenger, You can bluster as much as you like, and its not about individuals, I am aware you do good stuff, its about a culture of neglect. So, can you provide me with eveidence of how the left in all its persuasions, or at least your party, campaigned against the Welfare Reform Act, (a neo-liberal reform which incidentally is partly driven by the effects of mass migration) dates, times, actions. Oh, and just the WRA, not the NHS, Housing etc, just the bit that affects this bit of what you call a 'layer' of society.

What is your message TL - beyond 'its all hopeless, the left is hopeless , nobody cares'. Ironically you hit the nail, in one sense on the head - there is no mass campaign, there is a lack of confidence and resulting lack of concern on the part of not 'lefts' but society as a whole - even those who shake their heads, agree with you but look down in an embarrassed manner when you raise the issue with them. We are unlikely to to defeat the WRA - that is why the government has chosen the targets it has.

When it comes to bluster though you are one of the experts - you expect my to take your uninformed repetitive crap constantly and yet when I finally loose patience I get told how you feel attacked as an 'individual' - stop acting like a soft arse. It is not the fuckin 'left' who should be the target of your understandable anger but the fuckers that have demoralised, isolated and shafted one group of people after another. The various "left" groups are simply a collection of individuals who have come together because they recognise one cannot defeat such attacks individually (and, I hope, not daft enough to think that raising a red flag or 'demonstrating' is enough to then call 'organising' oneselves).

But that is not enough for you - you seem to expect these various left groups to drop everything and throw their non existent resources and time on the WRA because it's what effects you personally? Despite the fact that the odds are even more stacked against them of achieving owt? Despite the fact that you would be the first to shout if some left group 'took over control'? Despite the fact that these battle are down to YOU and YOURS leading them - not down to anybody else? Despite the fact that wee left groups are constantly having to punch way above their weight and therefore have to choose their battles very carefully if they are going to have any chance of influencing the outcomes? So you stand on the sidelines shouting 'shame'.

You have an easy stereotype - reinforced by spending too long on boards like this moaning and listening to other internet warriors talk crap about irrelevant, sectarian minutie and mistaking this for 'politics' let alone the politics of many, many genuine 'lefts'. I don't see anyone much marching on parliament over this one single issue on these boards - but apparently that is the 'lefts' fault (they probably killed cock robin as well...). Do you know about all the disputes going on at the moment? - no, its never mentioned on these boards - instead it various irrelevant tales and tittle tattle about this or the irrelevant leftie or anarcho group - what the ICC is talking about or who Class War expelled - no wonder you have a distorted view of what the left is if this is your window upon it. Every serious campaign has begun with individuals directly affected linking with wider groups of individuals - often through left groups. The poll tax campaign was initiated by real people - real individuals - arguing forcibly that, what was at the time no more than propaganda, could be turned - could gain wider active support. Its your turn to convince me about this campaign - and given the depressive sniping I have yet to be convinced. I already know many of the issues it has been patiently explained to me by supposedly 'do nothing' lefties again and again. But, come on, convince me this campaign you claim to be part of can defeated as a single issue on its own in a vacuam? That it is worth me putting more time, limited though that is, into it?

I think you confuse "moaning about something ineffectually" with "campaigning". For me the aim of a campaign has to be to win

Do you think you are the only individual in the world facing endless day-to-day shit TL? Do you think people like me live in some sort of protective bubble and everything is honky feckin dory for the rest of us? and rosy in my garden or that of both my leftie and non-leftie mates? Do you think it does not grate other people (like me and mine...) just as much as you when folk responses consist of hopeing it will all get 'better' and 'at least it is not them being effected'? Get a feckin grip and work out who your real enemies are

you see I can do a spot of cynicism as well...

 

[passthesalt]

Openly racist and an attempt to give concessions to the nazis - and totally illegal under EU Law as it discriminates against other EU Citizens

"British Jobs for British Workers" ? Wasn't that a slogan used by the National Party, a breakaway from the 70's NF.

Anyhow let all guess how they're gonna define "British" ?

Any suggestions ??????

 

[YoursTruly]

"British Jobs for British Workers" ? Wasn't that a slogan used by the National Party, a breakaway from the 70's NF.

Anyhow let all guess how they're gonna define "British" ?

Any suggestions ??????

Anyone with a British passport would be a start I suppose...

 

[nino_savatte]

Anyone with a British passport would be a start I suppose...

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But I'm sure a passport wouldn't be enough proof of one's 'Britishness', since it is possible to become a naturalised citizen.

 

[nino_savatte]

Dennis, just exactly what do you mean by the 'super-oppressed', to me its sounds nasty, patronising and speaks volumes about the left's workerist ideology. An ideology which clearly sees 'the worker' as more deserving of support than say, disabled people,


disgraceful...

The record's stuck, the record's stuck, the record's stuck, the rec...

Always railing against "leftists" and you're always bitching about immigration. What exactly are you, treelover? You constantly moan about the "left" and you tend to use language that has been adopted by the right. What are you? A Tory? Or are you just another grumpy auld xenophobe who lives in denial?

 

[tbaldwin]

The record's stuck, the record's stuck, the record's stuck, the rec...

Always railing against "leftists" and you're always bitching about immigration. What exactly are you, treelover? You constantly moan about the "left" and you tend to use language that has been adopted by the right. What are you? A Tory? Or are you just another grumpy auld xenophobe who lives in denial?

Nino. Do you really think that Treelover is on the Political right!!!
Seriously?
On what basis? Because he has questions about what people on the Left say and dont say about Immigration and the Welfare reform bill????? Does that automatically make him a Tory or a Xenophobe in your book?
Cos if it does,i suggest you get a new book.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino. Do you really think that Treelover is on the Political right!!!
Seriously?
On what basis? Because he has questions about what people on the Left say and dont say about Immigration and the Welfare reform bill????? Does that automatically make him a Tory or a Xenophobe in your book?
Cos if it does,i suggest you get a new book.

Yawn, you're a stuck record too. You and yer pal, treelover, are always bitching about the "left" and you both tend to use language that is redolent of the right. Get over yourself, dimwit.

If anyone disagrees with either of you, they're labelled "Liberal Left".

 

[poster342002]

Yawn, you're a stuck record too. You and yer pal, treelover, are always bitching about the "left" and you both tend to use language that is redolent of the right. Get over yourself, dimwit.

If anyone disagrees with either of you, they're labelled "Liberal Left".

And if anyone disagrees with you or the rest of the Dalek fleet, they're labelled a tory.