Brokeback Mountain - with spoilers

[Wookey]

Judging from the reaction outside the cinema, not many people have witnessed a 6ft 5 wookey in full floods of tears. Boy, that was powerful.

And now I have a crush on Jake. He's played a confused teenager with special powers, a queer cowboy, and a shaven-headed Marine with his top off. Is he trying to be a gay icon or what?!

I think Ennis was the one who wouldn't allow their love to be articulated properly, Jack offered, speaking about his dream, but he was turned down by Ennis, who said said he had his wife and girls, and that's how things had to be. Jack was obviously the more self-accepting queer, almost the predator in a way (I'm thinking of the mirror shaving scene right at the start.)

I'm not gonna type any more coz I'm starting to go again.

 

[marty21]

And now I have a crush on Jake. He's played a confused teenager with special powers, a queer cowboy, and a shaven-headed Marine with his top off. Is he trying to be a gay icon or what?!

plus the tag line in jarhead is "welcome to the suck"

 

[London_Calling]

got slightly frustrated with the devices used to show the passage of time, putting the year up seemed laboured, the aging of the children was sufficient...

The more usual devices used are world events seen on a background tv or newspaper headline: Man Lands on Moon, Vietnam War Over, etc., so I thought Lee at least tried to overcome the tricky issue more imaginatively.

I agree the 'Thanksgiving in 1977' banner was somewhat obvious, but perhaps he had his (American market) reasons. Apart from that, i thought they overcame the problem well; as I noted above, the sideburns worked fine, as did the cars, the decor, utensils . . . I'm assuming clothing fashion doesn't change a whole lot in downtown Wyoming, and disco is yet to hit the dancefloors.

 

[marty21]

The more usual devices used are world events seen on a background tv or newspaper headline: Man Lands on Moon, Vietnam War Over, etc., so I thought Lee at least tried to overcome the tricky issue more imaginatively.

I agree the 'Thanksgiving in 1977' banner was somewhat obvious, but perhaps he had his (American market) reasons. Apart from that, i thought they overcame the problem well; as I noted above, the sideburns worked fine, as did the cars, the decor, utensils . . . I'm assuming clothing fashion doesn't change a whole lot in downtown Wyoming, and disco is yet to hit the dancefloors.

i thought ennis aged better than jack

 

[Wookey]

i thought ennis aged better than jack

I thought the ageing process was very well done indeed - I was even sitting there thinking 'How've they done that, he didn't have those laughter lines before.' Likewise Jack's little pot belly at the Thanksgiving table made me and the other half laugh out loud. Perhaps we only laughed at that being the saggy side of 30...?

 

[Jim]

I have no desire to see this film. This is not because it is about gays but because all the reviewers said forget about the sexuality this is a really good doomed romance fillm. Basically I don't enjoy romance films and doomed ones make me feel depressed as well. Anyone want to recommend it for other reasons.

 

[pinkychukkles]

No.

[If this thread hasn't convinced you then there's no point.]

 

[London_Calling]

Do you like sheep ?

 

[pinkychukkles]

or camping...

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

In the book it is the imagination of Ennis that Jack got hit with a tyre iron and was beaten to death.

I don't agree - the book has this passage when Ennis talks on the phone to Jack's wife:

"He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.

"He buried down there?" He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road."

followed by this one when he's gone to meet the parents, and dad reveals that Jack had stopped talking about bringing Ennis to run the ranch and has said he's bringing another one to help him run the place:

"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

Can't see much imagination or ambiguity there, imo - further, i thought that these scenes were some of the most touching in the movie - the implications, the icy attitudes, what was strongly implied by leaving things effectively unsaid, all served to create an atmosphere that Ennis had mentioned earlier on, about feeling like everyone is watching you and knows your secret. He realised this simple truth whereas Jack, true to character, ignored it, in the context of their "hidden" lives. IMO anyways....

removed some crap attempt at html

 

[cockneyrebel]

I cried at the end.

Me too. Thought it was a really touching film. I'm a pretty harsh film critic and most films I've seen I think are crap. But I'd give this 8/10.

There is still so much homophobia in society. If you'd said you were gay in my school you would have had the shit beaten out of you, and I don't think things have changed much in the last ten years.

The best film I've seen in ages.

PS The woman I went to the cinema with said it was the first time she'd got turned on by seeing two men together, so there's something for everyone

 

[Stibs]

I have no desire to see this film. This is not because it is about gays but because all the reviewers said forget about the sexuality this is a really good doomed romance fillm. Basically I don't enjoy romance films and doomed ones make me feel depressed as well. Anyone want to recommend it for other reasons.

It isn't really a romance, its a tragedy. A fairly conventional tragedy.

A basically good man who, because of a flaw in his character, destroys those around him. Its more like Hamlet than Romeo and Juliet. Ennis, the lead character - the tragic hero - is frightened of what would make him happy and has such a low opinion of himself that he can't believe anyone would be happy with him.

That said, I think the general effect it has on gay men who watch it is to reduce us to puddles of tears.

Its nearly a week since Wookey and I went to see it, and I still start filling up when I think of those two shirts......

Never been so affected by a film.

 

[Reno]

That said, I think the general effect it has on gay men who watch it is to reduce us to puddles of tears.

Don't talk for all of us. This gay man was left thoroughly dry eyed by Brokeback Mountain.

 

[electrogirl]

Don't talk for all of us. This gay man was left thoroughly dry eyed by Brokeback Mountain.

I'm not gay or a man but I am a bit of a crier when it comes to films.

I thought it was sad, but not weepy sad. I think the tragedy aspect was quite tastefully done actually, not overwrought and soppy. It suited the general feel of the film.

 

[Reno]

I'm not gay or a man but I am a bit of a crier when it comes to films.

I thought it was sad, but not weepy sad. I think the tragedy aspect was quite tastefully done actually, not overwrought and soppy. It suited the general feel of the film.

I think the reason why I wasn't moved by the film was exactly because it was so tasteful. For me it was the cinematic equivalent of a coffee table book and it simply lacked passion, fire or some much needed anger. Wouldn't have minded just a little bit of humor among all the high mindedness either.

 

[girasol]

I spent some of the time thinking 'what has he/she just said'?

I'm either going deaf or my American ain't very good. Perhaps it was all the loud music I'd been subjected to the night before...

It was an interesting film, but definetely not movie of the year and it certainly didn't make me weep (it did make me feel a bit sad)...

 

[Strumpet]

I loved it, I loved the silence of the film and the slow unfolding of the story.

Same here.
Beautiful, bitter/sweet, sad.

 

[Xanadu]

Do they eat pudding in this film?

South park predicted this would happen

 

[London_Calling]

It isn't really a romance, its a tragedy. A fairly conventional tragedy.

A basically good man who, because of a flaw in his character, destroys those around him. Its more like Hamlet than Romeo and Juliet. Ennis, the lead character - the tragic hero - is frightened of what would make him happy and has such a low opinion of himself that he can't believe anyone would be happy with him.

Is an interesting take. In the end, I suppose it's whatever you want it to be.


Here's another example that questions the assumption of it being a ‘love story’:

Perhaps it’s actually not about love, but rather that thing that men do so much better than love i.e. lust. In fact, I can offer a cinema full of female friends who would argue that men, in general, are not capable of love as they understand it.

Has Ennis developed a taste for an occasional dabble in ‘dark side’ - something exciting and radical in an otherwise tame and uneventful life - is it a reaction – a rebelling – against his fathers teachings . . . that all might be pushing it a bit, but the point about assuming Brokeback Mountain is a ‘love story’ remains, imo.

Mind you love or lust . . . we could be here forever . . .

 

[Leica]

It would be interesting to find out if people who see the film tend to identify with any one of the characters, and with whom, and why.

 

[electrogirl]

I spent some of the time thinking 'what has he/she just said'?

I'm either going deaf or my American ain't very good. Perhaps it was all the loud music I'd been subjected to the night before...

Oh yes, I found this too. They were very mumbly.

 

[Bluesy]

I have no desire to see this film. This is not because it is about gays but because all the reviewers said forget about the sexuality this is a really good doomed romance fillm. Basically I don't enjoy romance films and doomed ones make me feel depressed as well. Anyone want to recommend it for other reasons.

Sometimes it's better to forget the review and see for yourself what goes on besides the doomed romance. Sexuality is a vital part of the film. Clearly, Ennis is sexually repressed and in denial when first meeting Jack, but through their physical expression, which at times are violent, they try to release their frustrations and desires. At the end, i think that Ang Lee attempts to show that the love still lives on mentally, despite the death. Reminiscient of when Zhang Zi jumps off the bridge in Crouching Tiger, its poetic love.

 

[marty21]

Do they eat pudding in this film?

South park predicted this would happen

yep, apple pie (ennis eats it)

 

[trabuquera]

things I didn't understand about Brokeback Mountain

1. Like some others here - about 15% of the dialogue whizzed straight over my ears, but I guess it's authentically cowboy mumbling.

2. The flash of violence with the tyre iron at the end - couldn't figure out if this was a flashback to the killing Ennis had witnessed as a kid, or what really happened (to contrast it with what Jack's wife described), or just what Ennis was imagining. Now I understand it's MEANT to be ambiguous, so OK.

3. In their initial idyll on the mountain - what was going on in that tussle when they got to punching each other? it seemed to me there was a definite shift from "horseplay" (which they'd done before) and into real violence - why? frustration that their time together would soon end, or a real test of strength, or what?

4. I wasn't totally convinced by their first sexual encounter either - like some other urbanites it seemed a bit odd to me that they got right down to the sodomy - no hand holding or kissing or gazing into each others' eyes first? particularly odd if it was Ennis's introduction to sex with men, imho... (but I'm a straight woman, so what would I know.)

5. the film never really made it clear to me why either of them got married in the first place - maybe that was the point, in that neither of them really knew either, and that's "just what you did" as a young man - but I never got any sense at all that Ennis had a spark of affection or interest in his wife even before the mountain.

6. similarly - I thought the film did slip a bit into caricaturing the women as materialistic nagging harridans - again, might have been how the two men saw it, but was less than subtle. I didn't really get how or why Ennis's relationship with his wife went so sour so quickly, either ... there they are having apparently desire-driven sex, then he's telling her 'if you don't want any more kids I won't want any part of you' and she's saying 'I'll have them but you have to support them ... all plausible, but it just happened a bit fast in the slow pace of the film.

7. while everything sort of looked correct, and sounded correct, I thought the film didn't really conjure up the whole mental /social world these guys live in all that effectively. somehow the whole milieu was missing - maybe to make room for all the landscape shots. I could have done with more of the guys interacting socially with others, to understand more of how and why they felt so boxed in by the norms of where they live.

8. last but not least - didn't ANYONE in this film ever feel exhilarated, or joyful, or smiley, or get happy-drunk? it was all a bit leaden and joyless, which surely was not the point...

anyway - it's still about 50000% better than most Hollywood product, and the acting is certainly brilliant, and some of the directing (i.e. when Jack goes to visit his newborn son and it's evident in 15 seconds or less that he is completely irrelevant and sidelined in his own new family) is just masterly.

But overall, i thought The Wedding Banquet was a far more humane and wry and witty and WARM film than Brokeback Mountain.

 

[D]

3. In their initial idyll on the mountain - what was going on in that tussle when they got to punching each other? it seemed to me there was a definite shift from "horseplay" (which they'd done before) and into real violence - why? frustration that their time together would soon end, or a real test of strength, or what?

I think you're forgetting the homophobia part - the part of each of them that says, "kill this person for making me this way". And the part that says masculine aggression/violence teeters on the edge of the erotic. They're both irrational parts, but very plausible. The violent tussle made complete sense to me.

4. I wasn't totally convinced by their first sexual encounter either - like some other urbanites it seemed a bit odd to me that they got right down to the sodomy - no hand holding or kissing or gazing into each others' eyes first? particularly odd if it was Ennis's introduction to sex with men, imho... (but I'm a straight woman, so what would I know.)[/QUOTE]

Hand-holding, kissing, gazing into each others eyes are all caring, romantic gestures, and something that a man does to/with a woman, not another man. It's as simple as that. Ennis has no respect for himself or Jack in that encounter. That tent fuck is only about love, intimacy, care, and joy in the most repressed, hard-to-reach way.

5. the film never really made it clear to me why either of them got married in the first place - maybe that was the point, in that neither of them really knew either, and that's "just what you did" as a young man - but I never got any sense at all that Ennis had a spark of affection or interest in his wife even before the mountain.

Yes, that's what you did. And if you didn't get married and had a very close relationship with another man, someone might suspect you were a homo.

7. while everything sort of looked correct, and sounded correct, I thought the film didn't really conjure up the whole mental /social world these guys live in all that effectively. somehow the whole milieu was missing - maybe to make room for all the landscape shots. I could have done with more of the guys interacting socially with others, to understand more of how and why they felt so boxed in by the norms of where they live.

Really? Now, I'm American; but this world - their milieu - couldn't possibly be more different from mine. I thought the scenes with Jack and his wife and dinner with the other couple and the scenes with the families were especially effective and accessible windows onto that social world. And the bar. And the rodeo. And Mexico. And...

8. last but not least - didn't ANYONE in this film ever feel exhilarated, or joyful, or smiley, or get happy-drunk? it was all a bit leaden and joyless, which surely was not the point...

I thought there was a decent amount of joy in Jack's rodeo life and his early encounters with Anne Hathaway's character (name?). And, as for whether bleakness was the point, what do you think was the point? To show the triumphant, beautiful love of two gay cowboys? I don't think so. This movie is desperately, deeply sad and, the way I saw it, primarily about an intense social disease (and I mean homophobia, not homosexuality) and the pain of isolation (Ennis's childhood and general mode of survival). Those are not happy subjects.

 

[London_Calling]

4. I wasn't totally convinced by their first sexual encounter either - like some other urbanites it seemed a bit odd to me that they got right down to the sodomy - no hand holding or kissing or gazing into each others' eyes first? particularly odd if it was Ennis's introduction to sex with men, imho... (but I'm a straight woman, so what would I know.)

I think that if you frequent any gay clubs, you'll notice that 'relationships' are an awful lot more straight forward when women are taken out of the scenario.

In fact one of the more interesting aspects of the post-film chit-chat has been the assumptions women make (about the relationship) based on their own experiences and sensibilities which are, of course, not partic relevant in a male-on-male world.

Esp, imo, the assumed view that there is somewhere in this film that thing that sets the hetro female heart a pumpin' . . . isn't it termed a 'love story' ?

 

[Leica]

In fact one of the more interesting aspects of the post-film chit-chat

you mean on here?

Esp, imo, the assumed view that there is somewhere in this film that thing that sets the hetro female heart a pumpin' . . . isn't it termed a 'love story' ?

As I implied somewhere above, I think a person's view of the story is to a great extent influenced by a possible identification with a character. Here there are two main characters and they are both male, but I don't see why a female viewer cannot possibly identify with a male character. The fact that female viewers can sympathise with one or the other guy does not mean however that all women will have an identical perspective on the story. You are perhaps stereotyping a little by assuming that all "hetero female hearts" think the same way. In case it isn't clear I am a woman and I am into men, I also happen to have a personal understanding of the story that I would not describe as setting my heart "a-pumpin' ".
It is one thing to make a distinction between men and women on the whole, and a distinction between the experiences of homosexual men (I presume that's what you mean by "male-on-male world") and the experiences of heterosexual women which is undeniable, but it is a sweeping generalisation to assume that the experiences of women and their attitudes towards relationships are identical (I can't speak for gay men but I guess the same applies).