Brixton's Culture Blanding Out

[IntoStella]

Hint to posters: when your smug complacency has been pricked, and you're confounded and stuck for a good enough retort, always endeavour to brush off the question as rubbish.

That'll work.

Or you could just be an obnoxious twonk, I suppose.

It's invariably people coming from the right who put up this clunky diversionary tactic of asking ''oh, so what would your idea of a Utopian Brixton be? No whites? No middle class people?" etc etc. It is invariably a very thinly veiled attack accusing others of idealism, nimbyism (that one always makes me chortle) or swivelly-eyed despotism. It is utterly pointless to engage with the debate on that debased level.

You know perfectly well that the likes of Aurora (and myself) are not trying to impose some sort of Stalinist social control on Brixton involving throwing all the white yuppies into the Effra. It's an insult to people's intelligence to keep rolling out these tired, hackneyed tactics.

 

[editor]

Perhaps it might be more relevant to ask why a new venue such as the Lounge had not one black face in it. (

You've got that completely wrong.

Not only is the Lounge owned by a black guy - it's always enjoyed a mixed clientèle from the day it opened - see for yourself here

Exactly what are you basing your woefully inaccurate 'no blacks' claim on? One quick look through the window?

 

[ernestolynch]

Thousands of the blacks who settled in Brixton and Clapham in the Fifties have sold their houses for a mint to the middle-classes (of all colours and nationalities), and have and are relocating to larger properties - semi-detached 1930s housing - in Thornton Heath, Norbury, South Norwood and Penge.

Maybe the 'Brixton Traditionalists' would want them not to move out? Perhaps their teenage dreams of living 'on the edge' in Brixton (ooh how that'll shock the ex-schoolmates and family back home in Godalming) are being slowly sapped by the upward mobility of the Windrush generation? Shouldn't the West Indians stay in Brixton to provide a gritty wallpaper and an urban vibe to our trustafarian Guardianistas' adventures in 'Riot-ville'?

Sorry kids - hatguy, aura green, et al - you could always move to Thornton Heath - it's the new Brixton after all.

 

[newbie]

you missed by about 20 years Ern, because TH is gentrifying as well and has been for a long time.

 

[IntoStella]

Your argument is totally arse-about-face, Ernie. Moving from Brixton to Norbury does not in any way signify upward mobility. The truth is that black people have been pushed out of Brixton by rising rents and property prices.

 

[Athos]

It's invariably people coming from the right who put up this clunky diversionary tactic of asking ''oh, so what would your idea of a Utopian Brixton be? No whites? No middle class people?" etc etc.

I'm anything but right wing, but I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on how they would like Brixton to be; this is a thread about what people don't want it to be (i.e. 'gentrified'), after all.

It is invariably a very thinly veiled attack accusing others of idealism, nimbyism (that one always makes me chortle) or swivelly-eyed despotism.

I'm not accusing aurora of nimbyism, idealism or despotism, merely suggesting that her initial post on this thread smacked of double standards.

It is utterly pointless to engage with the debate on that debased level.

Or saying that could be a way to avoid debate.

You know perfectly well that the likes of Aurora (and myself) are not trying to impose some sort of Stalinist social control on Brixton involving throwing all the white yuppies into the Effra. It's an insult to people's intelligence to keep rolling out these tired, hackneyed tactics.

Nobody's suggesting that you are. What's your point?

 

[hendo]

You've got that completely wrong.

Not only is the Lounge owned by a black guy - it's always enjoyed a mixed clientèle from the day it opened - see for yourself here

Exactly what are you basing your woefully inaccurate 'no blacks' claim on? One quick look through the window?

Seconded. A real slur on an excellent bloke.

 

[aurora green]

Exactly what are you basing your woefully inaccurate 'no blacks' claim on? One look through the window?

Look, in my inttial post, I just said thats what happened. I wasn't trying to slander the Lounge, its just what happened to me and what I saw on the day. I've already apologised and tried to explan my posts and why I think and said what I did.
I do think there's a race isue to do with gentrification, but I feel sure now, I am not able to argue about it. In fact I hate arguments at all, Im crap at it.

 

[IntoStella]

I'm anything but right wing

LOL.

If what you say is true, why are you using the same old pro-gentrification tactics that we've seen countless times before? I think you're being somewhat disingenuous.

 

[hendo]

I do think there's a race isue to do with gentrification, but I feel sure now, I am not able to argue about it. In fact I hate arguments at all, Im crap at it.

If there's one thing I've learnt from these boards it is that you have to think long and hard before you wade into the Race in Brixton debate.

 

[ernestolynch]

Your argument is totally arse-about-face, Ernie. Moving from Brixton to Norbury does not in any way signify upward mobility. The truth is that black people have been pushed out of Brixton by rising rents and property prices.

You don't think any black people bought up houses themselves? You don't think that they are cashing in on these houses now and moving out to T/H and Addiscombe etc? I suppose you'll deny the existence of a black landlord class now as well.

 

[Athos]

LOL.

If what you say is true, why are you using the same old pro-gentrification tactics that we've seen countless times before? I think you're being somewhat disingenuous.

I'm not pro-gentrification. Can you show me where I've said that I am, or even where I've said anything that could be construed as pro-gentrification?

The reason I replied to aurora's post was because I'm uncomfortable with people making value judgements about a place based solely on the colour of it's clientele.

I'm in favour of affordable housing in all areas of London, to allow those with links to an area to remian there, and to allow those who might not otherwise get the chance to live there, to do so (i.e preventing the poor from being 'priced out' of certain areas). Aurora seems to be in favour of refusing to drink in certain pubs because they're full of whites!

 

[tarannau]

Thousands of the blacks who settled in Brixton and Clapham in the Fifties have sold their houses for a mint to the middle-classes (of all colours and nationalities), and have and are relocating to larger properties - semi-detached 1930s housing - in Thornton Heath, Norbury, South Norwood and Penge.

And I suspect tens of thousands more didn't make a penny when they moved from Brixton, simply because they never had a chance to own the properties in the first place.

Of all the Guyanese families who moved over at the time of my mother - and there are a plenty - I can't think of one that benefitted from selling a property 'for a mint' Whilst they could afford to rent (and could rent) rambling properties in Brixton, Clapham and Streatham, the whole prospect of modernising these crumbling places with central heating, new windows and other basics was financially beyond them.

You're right - most of my family have ended up in Norbury. Mitcham and Thornton Heath now. Not for financial profit however, more that they moved to the only affordable 'family' areas nearby.

And it's only now that those suburbs are beginning to reflect the diversity and needs of the local population. Even ten years ago, some spots in Mitcham and Norbury were resolutely white and BNP proud.

West Indian families cashing in and moving joyfully to the suburbs? The reality was sadly far more disappointing than that...

 

[IntoStella]

I suppose you'll deny the existence of a black landlord class now as well.

Oh you do, do you?

 

[ernestolynch]

Oh you do, do you?

Fuck knows what that meant.

You have this little fancy idea that no Caribbean immigrants scrimped and saved and bought property in Brixton/Clapham in the 50s/60s/70s with the earnings from their hard work in the NHS/London Transport/construction jobs?

A notion that they aren't flogging their houses now while the property market in Brixton is through the roof, and getting larger properties in Zones 4 and 5?

What - do you feel like they've betrayed you or something?

 

[tarannau]

You don't think any black people bought up houses themselves? You don't think that they are cashing in on these houses now and moving out to T/H and Addiscombe etc? I suppose you'll deny the existence of a black landlord class now as well.

Not saying that at all. but it's a small proportion. Even in Brixton.

The folks who end up making the most from property development and gentrification are those who start off with money in the first place. Not many from the West Indies had that much to invest when they arrived - certainly most didn't have the resources to effectively become owners or even landlords until the gentrification process was well underway.

 

[ernestolynch]

Not saying that at all. but it's a small proportion. Even in Brixton.

The folks who end up making the most from property development and gentrification are those who start off with money in the first place. Not many from the West Indies had that much to invest when they arrived.

Who said they bought houses straight away FFS. Read my above post.

 

[IntoStella]

You have this little fancy idea that no Caribbean immigrants scrimped and saved and bought property in Brixton/Clapham in the 50s/60s/70s with the earnings from their hard work in the NHS/London Transport/construction jobs?

You are 100% wrong. Don't tell me what I think.

Can't you go and play in the general forum or something?

 

[IntoStella]

Who said they bought houses straight away FFS. Read my above post.

The thing is, tarannau actually knows what he is talking about, which you evidently don't.

 

[ernestolynch]

You are 100% wrong. Don't tell me what I think.

Can't you go and play in the general forum or something?

So your earlier claim:

Your argument is totally arse-about-face, Ernie. Moving from Brixton to Norbury does not in any way signify upward mobility. The truth is that black people have been pushed out of Brixton by rising rents and property prices.

No longer stands?

 

[ernestolynch]

The thing is, tarannau actually knows what he is talking about, which you evidently don't.

The hundreds of black families I work with and speak to regularly are a figment of my imagination then.

 

[Athos]

The hundreds of black families I work with and speak to regularly are a figment of my imagination then.

Ern, I think you'll find that those people's experiences should be discounted: they don't fit in with the trustafarians' ideas of what black people - you know, the ones from 'edgy' 'black' areas - should be like! I bet some of them don't even smoke ganja!

 

[ernestolynch]

They probably stayed in on the night of the riot as well.

 

[Athos]

They probably stayed in on the night of the riot as well.

They're not black; they're middle class!

 

[tarannau]

Who said they bought houses straight away FFS. Read my above post.

I have. You're still an arrogant, deliberately over-argumentative plonker.

How quickly do you think most of these immigrant families were allowed to jump up the career ladder? How long do you honestly think it took them to scrimp and save - on top of the rent/other mortgage - to invest in other properties in the area?

And don't you think, just perhaps, that they could have been financially outgunned by existing landlords, property developers and other 'locals' with greater financial security?

 

[ernestolynch]

How dare those West Indians come over here, with their Union Jacks, their WW2 medals and their King George VI coronation teatowels - and get regular jobs - and >cough< mortgages!!

They should all be 'colourful characters' standing outside some Anarchist Utopia Squat or something....

 

[newbie]

Not saying that at all. but it's a small proportion. Even in Brixton.

The folks who end up making the most from property development and gentrification are those who start off with money in the first place. Not many from the West Indies had that much to invest when they arrived - certainly most didn't have the resources to effectively become owners or even landlords until the gentrification process was well underway.

well yes and no. When I moved to this street 20 years ago most houses that were owner occupied were lived in by black families (about half the street was/is HA). Now those families have almost all moved away and many of the houses have been split into flats, some for rent, some for sale. The private half of the street has largely white occupants now.

 

[Ol Nick]

I already said that. Do pay attention. I think the closer we get to the next elections, the more desperate they are to push through their agenda.

I thought Labour had already sold most of it off. Or given it away. Or pissed it up against the wall. I've seen nothing to suggest that things are any worse with the Rainbow Alliance (ahem) than with the hapless pseudo-trots.

I'm a firm believer in tipping people out of office after a few years anyway just to give 'em some thinking time.

 

[Athos]

well yes and no. When I moved to this street 20 years ago most houses that were owner occupied were lived in by black families (about half the street was/is HA). Now those families have almost all moved away and many of the houses have been split into flats, some for rent, some for sale. The private half of the street has largely white occupants now.

What, black people sold their houses (at enormous profit) and moved out, thereby denying middle class white liberals the chance to take a 'walk on the wild side'. That's terrible! They should learn their places; what are they thinking of bettering their lot, and that of their families, when they should be stuck in Brixton adding a splash of colour?

 

[IntoStella]

How dare those West Indians come over here, with their Union Jacks, their WW2 medals and their King George VI coronation teatowels - and get regular jobs - and >cough< mortgages!!

They should all be 'colourful characters' standing outside some Anarchist Utopia Squat or something....

I really can't be arsed with this.