#BrixtonCantBreathe ...meeting.

Discussion in 'Brixton' started by Lee Japser, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    Petrol cars are not necessarily less polluting than diesel. Both produce Nitrous Oxide.

    Euro 6 emissions standards: what do they mean for you?

    The new European limits I notice show petrol cars are allowed to produce a certain amount of pollutants like NOx.

    There are increasing limits on pollutants. That have been brought in over several years.

    So just getting rid of diseal buses will not solve the problem.

    The other issue I have with concentrating on air quality is that this ignores the contribution of traffic to climate change through CO2 emmisions.

    For a city like London what is needed is reduction of car use and increase in public transport.
    sealion, Lee Japser and Celyn like this.
  2. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    An example is the failed attempt to reduce traffic through Loughborough Junction. The people on the Loughborough Estate opposed all of the experiment to reduce traffic through there estate. Even minor changes to stop rat runs on side roads. So now all kinds of polluting vehicles still go through the estate. Including past the primary school on Loughborough road.

    People get really angry about moves to limit traffic. I was at the meetings where they were shouting at Cllrs. Green issues are a vote loser.
    Winot and sealion like this.
  3. Rushy

    Rushy AKA some / certain posters

    I'd personally like to see the annual car tax replaced by a charge per mile (toll) which varies according to time of day, congestion, daily pollution levels, emissions type, etc...

    This could effectively make it free to use the roads in low emission vehicles off peak or in low demand areas.

    Interestingly, I have seen it suggested that driverless cars will make huge improvements to road capacity and emissions through more controlled and efficient driving.
  4. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Lorry ban worked before, during Ken's GLC reign. No HGVs in greater London between 7am and 7pm. Business hated it, because it meant stock delivery at night, but I really don't give a fuck if business hates something.
  5. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    It's not just a London issue, either. Most cities with bottle-necked traffic in one residential district or another have ridiculously-high incidences of reactive asthma attacks, especially in the summer.
    pinkmonkey and Celyn like this.
  6. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Faster through-flow on a 300-400m stretch of road won't do much at all, and would require a re-phasing of lights on the stretch, before it and after it.
  7. felixgolightly

    felixgolightly Active Member

    Haven't they dealt with it in Paris by limiting who can drive on certain days when pollution gets high? Based on odd and even numbered registration plates? Something like that? I kinda like the idea that they're saying, pollution is dangerously high, it's caused by your cars, so today I'm afraid you simply can't drive. And presumably the end point is, if you find that painful and inconvenient then you'll have to start agreeing to a better solution.
    Eggby and sealion like this.
  8. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    The big issue with diesels in cities, is that the engines are designed for maximum efficiency/minimal pollution when used on a motorway or other "open" road. They're frighteningly inefficient pollution-wise when used as a stop-starting "city car". This is why many German cities give tax incentives to city-dwellers to buy cars with relatively-small (max 1.3 litres) petrol engines (and hybrid/electric propulsion) to use "in town": Fewer particulates, better pollution-efficiency than diesel in the same circumstances, more efficient catalytic conversion of exhaust gases where created.

    A thoroughgoing increase in public transport use is unlikely to happen any time soon in London, though. There isn't much spare capacity for established methods, and when you still have tube and train services and stations that are mostly inaccessible to disabled people, you're effectively telling about 10% of London's population "you've got to use the bus only". This is why so many disabled people who are able, drive. It's not because they're petrolheads, it's because it's the only practical way for them to get from A to B.
  9. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Yep, and in some Spanish cities they've reduced pollution by fining any car owner who drives with no passengers on board, effectively making drivers "car pool" for commuting purposes.
  10. fredfelt

    fredfelt Mostly unknown member

    That's not to say that decent cycle infrastructure doesn't benefit the disabled - either by using it, or in the benefits offered to everyone from people friendly cities.

    Don't think disabled people aren't interested in cycling – or in proper bike lanes | Isabelle Clement
  11. SpamMisery

    SpamMisery Pretty comfortable here right under your skin

    Problem is, it's not a long term solution without the price of goods going up. Virtually everything you've ever bought from a shop has been delivered by lorry at some point. If you force them to deliver at night, they have to pay unsociable hours pay to staff, which eventually means the cost of items goes up to cover the cost.

    Bring on drone deliveries.
  12. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    Paris has "Boris" cars. Which are cheap. The future is to reduce car ownership with replacement by different kinds of public transport. Boris bikes for example are a start to extend what public transport could be in the future. The political problem is to make this affordable to all.

    Road pricing etc will just lead to the better off absorbing the cost with the less well off seeing , correctly,that green solutions favour the well off whilst penalising them.

    Been reading a science fiction novel where this happens. "The Water Knife". Set in near future where the well off build ecological gated communities to live in whilst the working class are left to live in shanty towns eking out a precarious existence.

    Amid a real drought, thriller 'Water Knife' cuts to the quick

    I agree with you about car owners. They are quick to blame buses for pollution. It's an easy target.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  13. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    As for night delevery. This will not increase cost to consumer. Delivery companies work on basis of offloading costs/risks onto the drivers. That is making them pay for congestion charge etc. Another reason why working class do not see green policies as for there benefit.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
    ddraig likes this.
  14. organicpanda

    organicpanda cat herder extraodinaire

    one of the unintended consequences was people buying another car with the registration opposite to the one they had so they could still drive around town
  15. SpamMisery

    SpamMisery Pretty comfortable here right under your skin

  16. Cosmic

    Cosmic Banned Banned

  17. sparkybird

    sparkybird ask the bird...

    Wow, that's pretty shocking. I have to use a vehicle for my work - I could use a van but I choose to use a car. I just recently got rid of a diesel and changed to petrol. I would love to have an electric vehicle, but as I park on street, I have no way of charging it.I very rarely drive outside of work but other than give up my job, I'm not sure what the solution is.....
  18. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    Cargo bike!
  19. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    A halfway house is to convert to LPG. Costs but save on fuel costs.It's greener than petrol.
    LPG: It's lean, green and cheaper too
    sparkybird likes this.
  20. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    Another way is to use recycled cooking oil. Not really feasible in London. In Brazil cars can work using petrol or sugar cane ethanol
  21. pinkmonkey

    pinkmonkey 2.4 hour party person

    Some people use it on their narrowboats but its not really a practical solution.
    I've been in London 26 years now, I cannot remember suffering so much with asthma, the difference when I'm not here and when I come back here is noticeable. Recently had my steroid dose doubled, but I still feel like I can't breathe and have permanent low level catarrh that doesn't ever subside til Ive been away for about a week.
    The pollution will be the thing that makes me relocate, I reckon.
    Gramsci likes this.
  22. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty IdProle

    Electric vehicles just move the pollution elsewhere if they're being charged from fossil fuels.
  23. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty IdProle

    Why aren't vehicles moving over to hydrogen fueled?
  24. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    Some buses are I think.
  25. 2hats


    If they're being charged with electricity derived from fossil fuels (the use of which is on the decrease in the UK) then the pollution can be dealt with at a smaller number of more tightly controlled places. Gas fired power stations (and ERF/WtE) are also vastly more efficient than any vehicle internal combustion engines. The pollution isn't being fed directly into lungs at the roadside either.
    Eggby, Gramsci and Magnus McGinty like this.
  26. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

  27. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    See that UKIP are blaming immigration.:facepalm:

    The report says private car use has declined. HGV has stayed the same. The big increase is small vans and taxis. Black Cabs have not Increased. It's private hire like Uber. The TFL cannot limit private hire vehicles.

    So report puts forward to ban workplace delivery of non work related items. Alternative is to get stations to store personal packages so people carry them home. It's growth of internet shopping that is causing this. Report recommend "consolidation". Where several companies share local depot. Last mile or so could go on bike.

    (I do regularly see Tesco delivery vans in my street. Despite there being Tesco in my street.A. Lot of these deliveries are not really necessary IMO.)

    The report says the encouragement to use other kinds of transport like Cycle Highways should be kept.

    One of the reasons for more congestion in central London is that since the congestion charge there has been improvements to the public realm that have reduced space for motorized transport. Also loss of road space for use as bus lanes. So whilst these improvements have made public realm better for pedestrians and cyclists it has not in long term reduced congestion.

    I see in future more virulent opposition to any further moves to prioritize pedestrians and cyclists. As seen inLoughborough Junction. And at Bank. Where cab drivers are holding demos to oppose pedestrianisation of Bank.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  28. editor

    editor hiraethified

    The majority of Uber vehicles - or at least a sizeable chunk - seem to use the Toyota Prius which I imagine has much lower emissions than most black cabs.

    Every single Uber seems to be a Toyota Prius. Why?
  29. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    Some are. 40% according to Uber. So not all.The report on congestion touches on more green transport but fails IMO to make recommendations on change to electric or hybrid vehicles. Not does it look at alternative to car ownership like extension of car clubs. Making Black Cabs to electric is another controversial measure it doesn't cover.

    The report recommends that private hire like Uber should pay a congestion charge. That's going to be popular. Won't affect Uber as they will pass cost onto drivers. My problem with a lot of these ideas of charges. The little people will be hammered.

    The report does not look at the future of driverless cars. Which could help if used right.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  30. sparkybird

    sparkybird ask the bird...

    Hey, thanks Gramsci - I had never even realized that could be done, and crucially (for me) without loosing internal space. :) The costs are not excessive (and mostly tax deductable for me as it's principally a business vehicle). However, the nearest sale points are in Tooting, Wandworth, Vauxhall and Forest Hill. I think Brixton is at the centre of a LPG hole!

    Reading around, I don't think take up as been as had been hoped, so I'd worry about the availability becoming even less. However, if Sadiq is serious about cleaning up the capital, maybe LPG might make a comeback.

    As I've only just got the car, I'm going to wait for 6 months or so and then look at this as a serious option.
    thanks again

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