Discussion in 'Brixton' started by editor, Jun 21, 2018.
The Gentrifiers Tour, surely.
whoosh. I give up with this forum - no room for nuance, irony or funnies (good, bad or indifferent).
Plenty of room for good jokes, but all the pro-Blairite/corporate-apologist/anti-workers stuff just gets really tiresome.
I never thought I'd see this forum shift so hideously to the right, but it definitely reflects the growing 'I'm all right Jack' nu-Brixton demographic.
There’s a huge difference between ‘anti’ and neutral, or even ‘anti’ and being able to manipulate different meanings, inferring intent and evaluating different point of view.
And I suspect you know that.
I'm fully aware of that distinction and my I stand by my comments. When people say that they would happily join the people laughing and drinking in the Ritzy when there's a protest happening right next to them, or when people try to push the blame on to the workers, then that's very much in 'I'm all right Jack' nu-Brixton demographic.
And how the fuck can you be 'neutral' to workers fighting a corporation for a decent wage?
Has any regular poster said this ?
That's a gap in the market
Um - were they not both banned by the moderators, rather than being driven away by tory gentrifiers and hipster toffs?
There are some narratives - which I risk a ban for even suggesting - to explain the drifting away of many people from the Brixton boards that are rather different from the one you present.
But people can probably make their own judgement reading the past few pages.
Not one single person on this thread has ever said they would ‘happily join the people laughing and drinking in the Ritzy when there’s a protest happening right next to them’. If you actually believe that then one has to call your general judgement into question. But let’s not go into that.
Nobody is ‘pushing the blame on to the workers’ – I suspect aka was using the well known rhetorical device of 'exaggerating for comic effect' – and presumably for a reason. I suspect you know that.
Here’s a scenario. For the benefit of the tape, it is not my scenario and it is not my position. But it is possibly realistic and based on a number of things I have heard from people here, people who aren’t on the boards whom I’ve told about the situation when they have mentioned the Ritzy, and also from somebody who is currently an employee of Picturehouse, and has said they are very happy in their job.
A busy person, possibly with a family, a demanding full time job maybe, might hear about the strike. They might even take the trouble to look up what the strike is all about. They might even read the Picturehouse side of the story and decide that with the living wage at £10.20, Picturehouse staff receiving between £9.40 and £9.99 an hour* with a number of other associated benefits including discounted food, free drinks and popcorn, free cinema tickets and late night working allowance, that actually, while it would be great if they got the living wage, it isn’t something that I am prepared to get up and fight because I have other concerns. They might think that they get paid better than lots of other businesses in the area with better benefits (even just any benefits), they might think that it’s zero hours and Amazon style workers that really need people to stand up for them. They might do a sponsored bike ride for people with debilitating illnesses, work in a soup kitchen or do some other form of community work. At the end of the week, when somebody suggests going to see a movie or tells everybody to meet at the Ritzy, they might think ‘yeah’, that’s just what I need’. This of course doesn't even take into account those who don't know about the strike/dispute. Somebody I know who is very kind and does a lot of work for community groups in Crystal Palace suggested we go to see a film at the Ritzy. I told her about it, but she felt that while she sympathised, boycotting it was not something she was prepared to do (we didn't go in the end btw).
They might equally say ‘let’s go and have a few lagers at the Ritzy and laugh at the workers’ (and yes, fuck those people). It seems that this is the default position for anybody who is not boycotting or even going down there to support them – or am I wrong? If so, please clarify.
It’s the unwillingness to even consider that there are so many other mediating factors why somebody doesn’t actively support the strike which does your argument harm. Because somebody is in the former category doesn’t make them ‘right wing anti-worker’. And if you continue to apparently demonise people that might be in this category, because you cannot always (possibly never) infer somebody’s beliefs from their actions, then you are distracting yourself (and others) from the real issues and from fighting real right wing idiocy. Verging on crying wolf. And please do not infer from that that I am equating the dispute with an imaginary animal, you are bright enough to work out what I mean.
And a disclaimer (again, because these tend to get ignored), before everybody piles on and tells me that these scenarios must be what I think because I typed them out, these are not all of the things that I think at all (I’ve already told you my position). But I have some thinking tools (that are freely available to all) to consider them. And as a thought experiment I am asking you to consider them rather than the apparent zero sum game of assuming everybody who doesn’t think what you think is a right wing troll.
And if the posh looking blokes in your photo that keeps getting posted up were indeed laughing at the workers, then they are indeed cunts. But one of them might have gone home and told their partner about it and they may have decided not to go to the Ritzy again. You don’t know.
*ETA: yes I am aware of this from the Picturehouse website but cannot comment on detail - it does not change the general thrust of the argument - 'Staff at The Ritzy Picturehouse London are represented by BECTU and agreed a rate of £9.10 per hour (equivalent to £9.70 with a paid break) from 2 September 2016'
Moving this post to the Picturehouse thread because while it is a direct response to a comment on this thread it is more relevant there.
So we're back to the suggestion that it's OK to ignore the boycott or not support the protest because some people may not be getting as much money somewhere else.
You can do better than that. Better than just firing a one liner that misses the point and ignores 99% of the post. And you know that.
For clarity: NO, I AM NOT ARGUING THAT.
So have you had a go at the posters here who said that they've ignored the Ritzy boycott? No? Why not?
I think it's fairly clear the discussion I am trying to have. I am not here to have a go at people - I have put forward scenarios that might incline people to ignore it. That is what is up for discussion, not attacking individual posters. I am trying to play the ball here.
An important thing to remember - it is not just about posters here is it? And I'm referring to the wider population. People on here are a minority. But don't let that distract us. And you've been doing this long enough to know I'm sure that the more decoy one liners you put up the further my post disappears off the page and so it goes away. But there I am inferring your intent - my bad.
The point is that there has been a very noticeable shift to the right, both on these boards and in Brixton. It's not unusual for posters to be more interested in pursuing point scoring or piss-taking in important discussions, to a degree that it kills the debate dead. The lack of solidarity and support for community issues - both here and in the real world - depresses the fuck out of me.
Have you been on the Ritzy picket line? On a Cressingham Gardens march? Or joined the library campaigners on their vigils? Or stood alongside the Guinness residents?
Of course it can end up as points scoring. I'm actually trying to score a point for reasoned debate and an open mind - don;t talk about point scoring when the automatic response to anybody positing that a different point of view or priority might exist for somebody you don't really know makes them a right wing anti worker troll. Is that not a fair and reasonable discussion? Is it not worth discussing the scenarios I posited?
This place can be great - it really opened my eyes to some stuff going on that I don't like and that I will fight against, but the narrow minded way in which reasoned discussions get shut down turn people away and create resentment. It's doing more harm that good.
What could possibly be wrong with positing the scenario above? You don't seriously think that everybody can care about everything all of the time do you? If you at least bothered to run with it and consider some of it then that would do a whole load of good and make this place a much more constructive and interesting place to be, but no - 'so you do;t care because other people pget paid less somewhere else'. What kind of argument is that? Let's throw the baby out with the bathwater eh?
No, I haven't been on any of those other marches because while I sympathise with some of them and have signed petitions, I choose to spend my time doing other things that I think are worthwhile. And to be called a right wing troll is frankly a fucking insult. But I know its the default position, I don't accept it, and my reality is far more important to me than the cartoon caricature you have of me in your head.
And that sums up how Brixton has changed. Solidarity and community has evaporated. Those less well off, or those struggling to keep their homes or battling to feed their families have become less interesting and worthy of discussion than some trendy new restaurant for those all-encompassing "occasional treats" and all the other divisive, exclusive, expensive crap that's continually rolling into town.
And, well, we all know how effective sitting at home and signing petitions are. Solidarity needs more than a remote mouse click.
Just look at the sterling defence of fucking Brewdog that was put up here recently. Like I said, utterly depressing.
There you go again. Shut it down. Right wing troll. You have no idea who I am or what I do and don't do with my time. I never said all I do is sit at home. Let's infer stuff about people and implicitly criticise them based on a single sentence taken in the context you choose to take it in.
QED. That's why this place will continue to piss you and everybody else off. If you can't see that then this conversation certainly won't help.
And you have continued to distract from the original post with more blind alleys. Good work!
Over and out.
In actual fact I forget Ernesto and Annakey left to form another forum as they found at the time Brixton forum wasnt left wing enough.
That was when I was considered mainstream in my views here. I didn't join it. Despite them asking me to.
I've been on Brixton' forum long enough to see the changes. Which do reflect the gentrification of Brixton.
Btw Hatboy was main moderator of Brixton forum then.
I never used to find Brixton' forum a hostile place to be. I do now. Now either my more reasonable posts are ignored or when I do get annoyed and post up more blunt opinion I suddenly get attention.
Posters here I know have put Brixton forum on ignore or don't post on it.
Posts above from regular posters from other sections of Urban are how Brixton forum is seen now on Urban. I think they are correct.
Yet again the narrative presented is of debate being closed down.
My experience of this site is that Ed and the Mods do a good job. Btw I feel no one really gives Mods credit for work they do.
Running a forum is difficult. Annakey and Ernesto new forum didn't work out in the end.
The Ed who gets so derided here provides free site. The Ed who is accused of "discrepancies" doesn't use peoples data to make money like FB.
To be frank Im sick of the whining.
Yep. Exactly this. And it's always the same faces who are quick to belittle, blame, sneer and complain or throw around accusations of 'hypocrisy' while they sit back and offer very little or nothing at all.
People lining up to defend Brewdog really was a new low.
Brewdog thread on politics boards was good thread. Get better posting on Politics boards for issue like this.
I’m sick of the whining also
That's because people in the politics forum are more interested in discussing the issues rather than delivering personal lectures and personal critiques. It's a real shame how the Brixton forum has turned out and there's quite a few people I meet out in the real world who can't believe how awful it's become.
This is example of the kind of posting that makes me feel Brixton Forum is hostile place to be now.
Yes I was chatting to someone last week who is active on local issues. He won't post here now.
You say this of 3Zeros but when I put up reasoned critique of your views on gentrification you ignore them.
I don't think you want to debate.
I think that's a shame. As someone towards whom I imagine this latest criticism is directed, I would welcome the chance to learn more about longstanding local issues and how I could help the area in which I now live.
I can understand how longtime posters feel marginalised by the changes happening in Brixton and to the forum to which they used to turn to vent with, and for support from, likeminded individuals no longer being 100% aligned to their views. But to shut down anyone who is not old Brixton on here and refuse to see their point of view, to level the accusation of "Tory scum" at them without engaging with them on the issues in an open-minded and non-knee jerk way, that seems to me to be short-sighted. We all live here and if we are to continue to do so then we should try to understand a little more about each other and listen to each other's points of view.
My view are not necessarily wrong. They may be more right wing than the views of others on here, but that makes them no less valid as views. Perhaps one of the reasons that the politics forums are better places in which to engage in discussions is because neither side of an argument feels that the other is encroaching on its "turf". I accept that some of my responses could be seen as personal attacks. But that is because so much of what is thrown back, with which all posters in the past may have agreed, is now a personal attack to the changing demographic of the board. So I suppose there is a choice (which I think T&P (?) mentioned earlier). Is the Brixton forum open to anyone, or should anyone '"nu-Brixton" no longer contribute?
My apologies, I missed that in what seemed to be a rapid posting of messages. I will go back and take a look.
Separate names with a comma.