Brixton Central Square

[lang rabbie]

TFL have concluded that Effra Rd closure is feasible AFAIK.

I think there's no question that there is sufficient roadspace in Brixton Hill to take two way traffic from Effra Road. The outstanding issue is where will all of the buses that currently get parked along Brixton Hill go?

 

[newbie]

There was lots of consultation on Central Square a couple of years ago I remember. In fact the same process repeated more than once.

Fair enough... I'm afraid i missed it completely

 

[hatboy]

It's very important not to miss public consultations on things. The authorities like to gather together opiniions so they can ignore then all at once.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

It's very important not to miss public consultations on things. The authorities like to gather together opiniions so they can ignore then all at once.

That would be hilarious if it were not so true.

 

[editor]

The Brixton Society have created a section on the proposals authored in their, err, inimitable clunky, colourful style.

 

[miss minnie]

ouch. that hurt my eyes.

edit: warning - the 'phase one proposals' opens a pdf. always damn well crashes firefox when it closes and is one of the most painful file formats to have ever been invented. imo.

 

[editor]

edit: warning - the 'phase one proposals' opens a pdf. always damn well crashes firefox when it closes and is one of the most painful file formats to have ever been invented. imo.

Indeed it does (although for me it freezes Firefox before it opens the PDF)

What's more Acrobat just loves to sit in the background once you've viewed and then closed a PDF file, busily hogging resources for no good reason.

 

[pooka]

Goodness, Brixton Society is getting all consultative! What with Brixton Forum's Chair championing the bigger scheme and Brixton Society chanpioning the quick and dirty, it'll be questionaires at dawn!

I like their lighting ideas, but "Seating - encourages loitering" is a bit of an odd sentiment.

 

[newbie]

Goodness, Brixton Society is getting all consultative! What with Brixton Forum's Chair championing the bigger scheme and Brixton Society chanpioning the quick and dirty, it'll be questionaires at dawn!

I like their lighting ideas, but "Seating - encourages loitering" is a bit of an odd sentiment.

Who are Scott Wilson and what is their involvement?

Looking at Opportunites & Constraints it seems that having benches face inwards so that people can- gasp- sit and talk to each other, is wrong. They are striving to give the area 'open views' with no 'visual barriers', ie to make it as barren and sterile as possible.

As pointed out by someone above, this appears to be driven more to discourage drinkers and dealers than by any thought to the longterm interests of local people. The existing square has been there a century or so, and this new scheme must be expected to last for a similar period. Basing it solely on current issues is just wrong. Brixton deserves better.

 

[lang rabbie]

As someone who originally supported a do minimum approach to increase feelings of security for library users (in particular parents of kids) who felt hassled by the dealers, I think that these proposals go completely over the top.

This design process seems to have been dominated by some jumped-up crime prevention officer, with a doctrinaire approach not just to designing-out crime, but also designing-out all forms of basic social interaction, such as sitting on a bench chatting. It would be as bleak as the plaza in the Gross Max proposals.

Yes, take out the raised planters. Improve sight lines by taking out some of the trees planted in the mid-80s. And on balance, I would put a temporary cap over the victorian loos until a longer term plan for a possible underground space can be funded. But there is no need to cart away the fountain if it is no longer obscured by the planters. It would provide an obvious focal point for some benches

Newbie

Scott Wilson are a multi-disciplinary consultancy firm (think their original background was largely highways/civil engineering but they now do a lot more general planning stuff) Not sure what tender process was gone through for their appointment to this project...
www.scottwilson.com

Planning areas include: Architecture, Landscape Architecture, Masterplanning, Residential Development, Town Planning, Transportation, Urban Design

 

[lang rabbie]

The existing square has been there a century or so, and this new scheme must be expected to last for a similar period. Basing it solely on current issues is just wrong. Brixton deserves better.

But the current layout has been there for less than twenty years. It has common problems with many open spaces that were given a makeover in the 80s with Urban Programme money. They typically included raised planters (were they all meant to generate employment for brickies being trained by other regeneration schemes?) with little thought on choice of planting that wouldn't block sightlines, not to mention more recent use for stashing drugs.

And the Brixton Soc proposals are supposed to just be a first element of any wider makeover, and should not conflict with any longer term vision for the Central Square.

 

[Gramsci]

To be honest, I find a lot of the negativity on this thread a bit depressing. How often does a shit load of cash get spent on improving things for the people of Brixton? I think people should get along to the public meeting and make their views heard, rather than moaning about the drug dealers ruining the plan. The dealers are gonna be here, square or no square, so why let them ruin what could be a really positive project? I'd rather support the project and help mould it to something that could be useful, positive and exciting, than knock it.

QUOTE]

Sorry Hatters but Im not having this.I went to the early consultations on this scheme.If I sound negative its because of the crap treatment I got.Not because Im just a whinger.I been to public meetings on this subject.Ive seen peoples views ignored and consultation ditched when it did not fit what the Council/Brxton Town Centre mg wanted.

 

[Gramsci]

As I understand it, the line is that all the consultation that's going to happen, happened two years ago. This is just going to be an information giving meeting. But it would be good if there was such a stregnth of feeling shown that they couldn't help but be affected.

I guess people need to be clearly sorted beforehand - otherwise it all comes across as being incoherent and they'll just do what they want anyway.

Yes the consultation was done and the Town Centre Manager of that time(now promoted up the greasy pole of Lambeth) ignored it.Their was supposed to be further consultation.The preliminary consultation outlined several proposals.The kind of concerns raised here by Newbie/HB were raised then and not addressed.

It does not matter whether ur coherent or not they will try and do what they want.Also the careers of Council Officers play a role.If they can be seen to bulldoze a scheme through whilst appearing to be good at dealing with the "community" they get promoted.

However given the coherence and quality of the posts on this thread it would be interesting to turn up and see how they deal with it.

If this is going to be an information meeting it may be "managed".The meeting on the Secondary School for Brixton was an "information meeting".Their was no time set aside for questions.

If I was a senior Council Officer organising this meeting I would start it by saying that the meeting was for information about this "exciting" project.And not to go over old ground when the scheme has already been "consulted" on.That the meeting is to inform and "move on".

 

[hatboy]

As I said, while I feel the temporary changes to Tate Gardens will be an over-reaction and a waste of money, I am for Central Square. I've talked to the architects and various people in the council about this and I agree with "Brixton Hatter" that this thread is too negative.

Why not list the positive features you'd all like to see incorporated in the square and the fears you have (as I do, on exclusion for instance) and take them to the forthcoimng meetings.

 

[IntoStella]

We (Landscape Review) are going to try to get a response from gross max to the many compelling concerns that have been raised. Cat, pigeons, pigeons, cat.

I shall keep you posted. While I wouldn't dream of using u75 for 'journalistic research purposes', this is an important issue and I might at some point PM some of you to ask if you would mind being quoted (as disgruntled Brixton residents) if we do cover this. It's interesting because we usually only get the architects' side of things and all the award-swapping/backslapping. We have just had a change of editor and the new ed is a lot less luvvy-darling about it all. It makes one wonder just how many of these much vaunted award winning schemes are loathed by the people who have to live with them.

Above all I get the feeling from many posters here that this scheme is an insulting, inadequate sop to Brixton and its residents.

 

[editor]

Why not list the positive features you'd all like to see incorporated in the square and the fears you have (as I do, on exclusion for instance) and take them to the forthcoimng meetings

A good place to start would be to compile a list of successful new/regenerated town squares and examine what elements contributed to their success.

 

[IntoStella]

Some successful public spaces off the top of my head;

Grainger Town, Newcastle
Parc Diagonal Mar, Barcelona
Royal Victoria Square, Canary Wharf
The Triangle, Manchester
Piccadilly Gardens, Manchester

I will try to find links to pics or post some up if I can find them.

Needless to say, not only intelligent design but high quality materials and excellent workmanship are key to the success of a lot of these.

 

[lang rabbie]

Some successful public spaces off the top of my head;

Grainger Town, Newcastle
Parc Diagonal Mar, Barcelona
Royal Victoria Square, Canary Wharf
The Triangle, Manchester
Piccadilly Gardens, Manchester

I will try to find links to pics or post some up if I can find them.

Needless to say, not only intelligent design but high quality materials and excellent workmanship are key to the success of a lot of these.

As I mentioned on the earlier central square thread , I think the jury's still out on Piccadilly Gardens - nice fountains for kids to play in, but the architect designed 4metre high curved concrete wall is not universally popular with Mancunians of my aquaintaince

 

[hatboy]

"Above all I get the feeling from many posters here that this scheme is an insulting, inadequate sop to Brixton and its residents."

I think everyone should remember also that the design linked on this thread is not the final one. Hopefully no where even near the final design. And the temporary changes to Tate Gardens are ultimately irrelevant.

 

[editor]

Some successful public spaces off the top of my head;

They're slowly building a fairly lively public arts/events space in Cardiff Bay (nee Docks, nee Tiger Bay). The construction of a large theatre/arts space will no doubt help promote the place.

In some respects, I'd prefer to see a well built, stylish, top quality theatre/arts space in a corner of Windrush Gardens rather than a big windswept open space.

That way, it would guarantee a flow of people in and out of the square and, after all, that's how it was originally with the Brixton Theatre and Cinema.

 

[newbie]

Editor, theatre space, yes. much better location than Bradys, an earlier suggestion. If the road is closed off, and Rahleigh Hall /BCA incorporated it could make a very fine enhancement of the local area.

I2S whatever else you've been accused of I doubt anyone would think of you as being here just to trawl for journalistic opportunities. Go for it.

LR
Agreed the current design isn't a cenury old, though I think it predates the huge planters they put around and about Brixton to stop crowds gathering post 1981. But it works, pretty nearly every inch is used, and that's the point.

and finally

Mrs M, I stopped there today to check, and it is indeed a Sharpeville monument. Now I'm trying to recall what the thingie on Max Roache Park is...

 

[Mrs Magpie]

The Max Roach sculpture is based on that really famous photograph where a schoolchild is lying shot dead in the arms of a friend who is running and crying with a girl running alongside......I'll google and come back with the image when I find it

 

[pooka]

The Max Roach sculpture is based on that really famous photograph where a schoolchild is lying shot dead in the arms of a friend who is running and crying with a girl running alongside......I'll google and come back with the image when I find it

Isn't it in his/her father's arms? I think the person who was the little girl in that picture was in the news recently - well, in the last year.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

....that didn't take too long...I suddenly remembered the dead child was called Hector...I got it wrong though....it was Soweto, not Sharpeville.......

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Isn't it in his/her father's arms?

No, a fellow student.

"I saw a child fall down. Under a shower of bullets I rushed forward and went for the picture. It had been a peaceful march, the children were told to disperse, they started singing Nkosi Sikelele. The police were ordered to shoot."

These are the words of Sam Nzima, recalling the events of 16 June 1976, when over 500 people were killed as they protested over the imposition of Afrikaans as a medium of instruction in township schools.

Nzima's photograph of the dying Hector Pieterson being carried by a fellow student was published around the world, and came to represent the anger and tragedy of a day that changed the course of South African history, sparking months of clashes between police, schoolchildren and protesters.

From www.safrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/history/hector-pieterson.htm

 

[pooka]

You're right - the family relationship was with the girl, who was his sister, Antionette.

 

[newbie]

I wonder how many times I've been past and not known that. tvm.

 

[Gramsci]

As I said, while I feel the temporary changes to Tate Gardens will be an over-reaction and a waste of money, I am for Central Square. I've talked to the architects and various people in the council about this and I agree with "Brixton Hatter" that this thread is too negative.

Why not list the positive features you'd all like to see incorporated in the square and the fears you have (as I do, on exclusion for instance) and take them to the forthcoimng meetings.

Because HB some of these points have been made at previous consultation meetings and ignored.I agree with a lot of what Newbie has said on this matter.Im not negative but Im not interested in bullshit either.I still stand by my previous posts.Its not my fault they seem negative-thats the Councils fault.

When Pookas said he had heard that the meeting in October is going to be an "information meeting" I think on past experience it will be a stitch up.

Ive already said what I want.I want the squares to stay separate and be maintained properly.Windrush sq does need landscape designing.

By the way as far as I can see their is no definite money for this project.Given that land and housing in Central Brixton is still under threat of being sold off this project is a distraction.

 

[Gramsci]

As someone who originally supported a do minimum approach to increase feelings of security for library users (in particular parents of kids) who felt hassled by the dealers, I think that these proposals go completely over the top.

This design process seems to have been dominated by some jumped-up crime prevention officer, with a doctrinaire approach not just to designing-out crime, but also designing-out all forms of basic social interaction, such as sitting on a bench chatting. It would be as bleak as the plaza in the Gross Max proposals.


www.scottwilson.com

I agree LR but the thing is this seems to be the bottom line of a lot of regeneration schemes now.The dealers have been got rid of by more policing.The dealers have got the message for a while and moved on.

 

[Gramsci]

We (Landscape Review) are going to try to get a response from gross max to the many compelling concerns that have been raised. Cat, pigeons, pigeons, cat.

Above all I get the feeling from many posters here that this scheme is an insulting, inadequate sop to Brixton and its residents.

Nice one IntoStella