Brixton Central Square
- Thread starter Robin
- Start date
hendo said:
There's always been a big debate about/problem with pissing in that area and I just wondered if they'd put a Public Toilet in the plan.
If I recall, it's been argued by the Powers that Be that they can't reopen the underground loos at Brixton Oval cos they'd contravene the Disabilities Discrimination Act. When asked why they can't be reinstituted on the surface, the answer is that 'the sewers are too deep'. Maybe that's something to do with it? (Begs the question - how do residential and commercial properties round about get by?)
Alternatively, maybe there are toilets in the proposal but no-one had the stomach to let Gross Max's graphic designer loose on them?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
pooka said:
I agree with a lot of what Newbie posted.Also half the problem I have with it is that its going to go ahead anyway.This is a Council project.To qualify what Newbie said I also think its for the Council to win awards for itself as well.The Brixton Area Forum is no more representative of the area than U75.
As Ive said before I think the 3 spaces should be kept separate and maintained properly.Windrush sq does need proper landscape gardening to make it a better space.This would be cost effective and more likely to "design out crime".
I did go to the early consultation meetings on it and the Raligh Hall.Their were those not so keen.I rememeber the old people who live in the sheltered housing at the top of Saltoun Rd being concerned how this would affect them-dont blame them.Their concerns were not taken on board-but of course they could be labeleed as "against change in Brixton".
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Found this on the SLP website--May 7 2004
" LBLs assistant director of development told Brixton Area Forum the design would aim to get rid of crime which plagues the 3 open spaces.
She said:"There is no pont creating a beautiful piece of public realm if it is overrun by drug dealers.The borough commander is on the selection panel,making sure we have the full input of the police to ensure we design out crime,a plan for managing the space and a visible presence all the time."
The meeting heard full time patrols would be necessary to keep the square crime free."
Their is a contradiction here.The new "public realm" is supposed to "design out crime" yet "full time patrols" would be needed.Going back to the interesting question of what a "public realm" is for- this does not seem that inviting space to me.It will be under heavy surveillance.The GLA is pushing the idea of public spaces.
IMO the idea of public spaces is that they are free and open.I suppose the idea of the public square could be traced back to Ancient Greece-where the democratic citizens met.I know this is not that historically accurate but its these part myths/ideals that mean something.
If a democratic open London/Brixton is to be encouraged where its citizens feel part of it this is not the way to do it IMO.
" LBLs assistant director of development told Brixton Area Forum the design would aim to get rid of crime which plagues the 3 open spaces.
She said:"There is no pont creating a beautiful piece of public realm if it is overrun by drug dealers.The borough commander is on the selection panel,making sure we have the full input of the police to ensure we design out crime,a plan for managing the space and a visible presence all the time."
The meeting heard full time patrols would be necessary to keep the square crime free."
Their is a contradiction here.The new "public realm" is supposed to "design out crime" yet "full time patrols" would be needed.Going back to the interesting question of what a "public realm" is for- this does not seem that inviting space to me.It will be under heavy surveillance.The GLA is pushing the idea of public spaces.
IMO the idea of public spaces is that they are free and open.I suppose the idea of the public square could be traced back to Ancient Greece-where the democratic citizens met.I know this is not that historically accurate but its these part myths/ideals that mean something.
If a democratic open London/Brixton is to be encouraged where its citizens feel part of it this is not the way to do it IMO.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Gross Max state(SLP 13/8/04)That
"Whilst most of London is too reserved,Brixton has a buzz and energy which is both exciting and absorbing..the fragmented open spaces are underused.The task is to turn the ordinary into the extraordinary."
I dont think the Tate Gdns or St Matthews are underused.Windrush sq is has it has no seats for starters.Went past the Tate yesterday and it was full of the Tate drinkers.I went past St Matthews late last night and it had clubbers in it.The new Red Card zone will mean that these people will eventually be moved on.Thus whilst Gross Max acknowledge that Brixton has "energy" IMO the new plans and how this space is managed will take that away.
The same article in the SLP had comments from locals.One said of the Tate drinkers:
"I think their is a kind of snobbery about the Tate Gardens.These are old guys who come from a different generation.They have faced problems and never made it,but in Carribean culture you live life outside...They may not be an attractive sight to the community but they are not doing any harm-they are part of the community."
Another local commented that,
"Joining them together is only going to mean fencing off... a bigger space...I dont feel threatened in Brixton myself but if I see somebody sitting in the street,they are not usually reading a book..they are having a spliff...We are used to it -we are here everyday.Brixton is for Brixton people and it is not easy for others."
And Ive heard other people make comments like this.Trouble with consultation is that contrary views can be filterd out.And really having the Chief of Brixton Police on the design selection panel-who gave him the right to represent Brixton views?
"Whilst most of London is too reserved,Brixton has a buzz and energy which is both exciting and absorbing..the fragmented open spaces are underused.The task is to turn the ordinary into the extraordinary."
I dont think the Tate Gdns or St Matthews are underused.Windrush sq is has it has no seats for starters.Went past the Tate yesterday and it was full of the Tate drinkers.I went past St Matthews late last night and it had clubbers in it.The new Red Card zone will mean that these people will eventually be moved on.Thus whilst Gross Max acknowledge that Brixton has "energy" IMO the new plans and how this space is managed will take that away.
The same article in the SLP had comments from locals.One said of the Tate drinkers:
"I think their is a kind of snobbery about the Tate Gardens.These are old guys who come from a different generation.They have faced problems and never made it,but in Carribean culture you live life outside...They may not be an attractive sight to the community but they are not doing any harm-they are part of the community."
Another local commented that,
"Joining them together is only going to mean fencing off... a bigger space...I dont feel threatened in Brixton myself but if I see somebody sitting in the street,they are not usually reading a book..they are having a spliff...We are used to it -we are here everyday.Brixton is for Brixton people and it is not easy for others."
And Ive heard other people make comments like this.Trouble with consultation is that contrary views can be filterd out.And really having the Chief of Brixton Police on the design selection panel-who gave him the right to represent Brixton views?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
pooka said:Ianw - I don't by any means present myself as an apologist for this scheme! Though I do think intelligent use of underused space in the area would be good - I'm not convinced a grande projet is the answer, for much the same reasons as rabbie, gramsci and newbie.
QUOTE]
Fair enough.Maybe Im sounding to negative.I think a lot of it is how the space is "managed".One of my fears is this new plan will be used to "clean up" Brixton.In reality this could be done now if the Council/Police use all the powers that they have.
The Dealers have been removed from the Tate Gdns.I have no problem with that.The Cops seem to be leaving the drinkers alone-despite the Red Card Zone at the moment.
The trouble is this just moves the problem.The dealers are now hanging about the Bus stops-to my annoyance.Also back down CHL again-one of them tried to snatch my mobile last night-unsucessfully.I did have it in my jacket pocket-he must have seen the outline of it.Im to alert done CHL for that and he was not up for a fight-fortunately.
Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
It looks like a school art project made from everyday objects.
I'm sure they've used polo mints in there somewhere
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
hula hoops/polo mints...
max roach park is sometimes visited by fly-tippers leaving big piles of car tyres. i reckon these architects think that it must be a normal occurrence in brixton's open spaces and they figure they'll just go with the flow but paint them white.
max roach park is sometimes visited by fly-tippers leaving big piles of car tyres. i reckon these architects think that it must be a normal occurrence in brixton's open spaces and they figure they'll just go with the flow but paint them white.
newbie
undisambiguated
Gross Max said:
So, because there is one chunk of unnecessary and useless public open space created recently because someone thought it would be a good idea, they want to enlarge it by destroying two useful and historic historic areas that are integral to the town centre? This is all about covering up the failure that is Windrush Square.
There is indeed quite a lot of fragamented public space around the centre, but to suggest its all underused is wrong. Some of it, like the skatepark or Tate Gardens is well used & part of modern local identity. The Peace Garden has developed a nocturnal life that can't have been imagined when it was being discussed. The pedestrianised bit of Tunstall Road opposite the tube seems to work. Does Trinity Gardens count as a fragment?
But one grand guesture by modern planners, Windrush Square is almost totally deserted and another, Max Roach Park always seems pretty underused to me, so it must be time for another one. And hey, all over the country large, sterile urban public spaces are being created so Brixton must need one, right?
Have you noticed that the models always present Gods view? Unless they start providing tethered balloon rides we'll never see that view. We'll see a wide open lump of barren concrete or somesuch to trudge across in the pouring rain.
clandestino
no llevar papel
forgive my ignorance hatboy. i haven't been to a public meeting of this sort before but feel that this may well be my first. where are the assembly rooms? in the town hall?
hatboy said:
As I understand it, the line is that all the consultation that's going to happen, happened two years ago. This is just going to be an information giving meeting. But it would be good if there was such a stregnth of feeling shown that they couldn't help but be affected.
I guess people need to be clearly sorted beforehand - otherwise it all comes across as being incoherent and they'll just do what they want anyway.
How would you change what's on offer, hatboy?
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
See
Projects for Public Spaces - Great Public Spaces
for one view on what makes a successful park or plaza
and their
Hall of Shame
for more examples of dysfunctional architect designed spaces.
Projects for Public Spaces - Great Public Spaces
for one view on what makes a successful park or plaza
and their
Hall of Shame
for more examples of dysfunctional architect designed spaces.
clandestino
no llevar papel
lang rabbie said:
one of which is the museu d'art contemporani in barcelona just because the plaza has been taken over by skaters. imo it's a vibrant and lively square, made all the better by the presence of the skaters. that's exactly the kind of snobbery that isn't going to help create a successful square here.
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
ianw said:
No, it's not saying that. PPS are saying that its because the square fails to work at most levels other than as a narrow bit of minimalist architecture (true of several other spaces in Barcelona of 1992 Olympics vintage), and doesn't attract pedestrians to linger, that it is now only used by skaters who have brought their own subculture to the area, and therefore has some liveliness from people who come to watch the skaters! (see also South Bank Centre undercroft)
"How would you change what's on offer, hatboy?"
I don't think what's shown above in that model is what is on offer. I think it's just some random example. I'm expecting to see alternative designs at the meeting. I think this thread has jumped the gun a bit. Please god that can't be it!!!
I'd like to see a permanent stage or concert bowl, top quality bench seating, some grassed areas so it's not all cold granite, a cafe with seating and outside tables and toilets and kids area, Raleigh Hall as the black culture/Brixton history museum, some really stunning art and scupture, lots of colour/murals on the end of Rushcroft, amazing variable coloured lighting, some water thing that actually works (not the current crap fountain or anything by the Diana memorial designer), and all of it top quality and made so well that it cannot fall apart or be pulled apart.
What I fear is that it will be like the private, patrolled space around City Hall by Tower Bridge - very high quality grey paving, but almost featureless apart from a few very crap "sculptures", corporate-looking water features and signs up saying "no this, no that, no nothing" but pretending it's a great place to be.
It will probably be officey, colourless and perfect for a young professional to eat an over priced sandwich in while police patrols prevent improperly dressed, over-friendly Brixton types "intimidating" them by trying to say "hello" and/or being a bit pissed.
I want this "Central Square" but I'm worried that it will both let Brixton down in creative terms and be oppressive if you don't fit in.
I don't think what's shown above in that model is what is on offer. I think it's just some random example. I'm expecting to see alternative designs at the meeting. I think this thread has jumped the gun a bit. Please god that can't be it!!!
I'd like to see a permanent stage or concert bowl, top quality bench seating, some grassed areas so it's not all cold granite, a cafe with seating and outside tables and toilets and kids area, Raleigh Hall as the black culture/Brixton history museum, some really stunning art and scupture, lots of colour/murals on the end of Rushcroft, amazing variable coloured lighting, some water thing that actually works (not the current crap fountain or anything by the Diana memorial designer), and all of it top quality and made so well that it cannot fall apart or be pulled apart.
What I fear is that it will be like the private, patrolled space around City Hall by Tower Bridge - very high quality grey paving, but almost featureless apart from a few very crap "sculptures", corporate-looking water features and signs up saying "no this, no that, no nothing" but pretending it's a great place to be.
It will probably be officey, colourless and perfect for a young professional to eat an over priced sandwich in while police patrols prevent improperly dressed, over-friendly Brixton types "intimidating" them by trying to say "hello" and/or being a bit pissed.
I want this "Central Square" but I'm worried that it will both let Brixton down in creative terms and be oppressive if you don't fit in.
I understand what you're saying hatboy and have a lot of sympathy with it but I think the "Panel" chose the firm of architects from a short list of six on the basis of their presentations. If the idea is they'll now produce something totally different, how's that fair on the others?
Nonetheless, I hope you're right and the thing can be revamped along some quality, engaging lines.
Nonetheless, I hope you're right and the thing can be revamped along some quality, engaging lines.
Hi guys
Sorry I haven't posted again before now. lang rabbie covered off who I am quite effectively (thank you!), but to recap:
1. I run perfect.co.uk, a political blog with quite a few contributors aside from myself - check it out if you haven't already
2. My personal blog is perfect.co.uk/robin, where I posted about the Brixton Central square (and linked to from the start of this thread)
3. I happen to work at Tribal, which in this context is not relevant
and
4. I got the images by emailing Isolda McNeill who's named on the Lambeth Council press release and asking for them - she also gave me a contact name and number at Gross Max if anyone wants to ask them more questions
To add my opinion - I really like the idea (possibly influenced by the fact that I own a flat on Saltoun Rd), but think the current plans as visualised leave a lot to be desired - some sort of central cafe, some great pieces of public art perhaps
I think I'll be going to that meeting on the 6th Oct...
Robin
Sorry I haven't posted again before now. lang rabbie covered off who I am quite effectively (thank you!), but to recap:
1. I run perfect.co.uk, a political blog with quite a few contributors aside from myself - check it out if you haven't already
2. My personal blog is perfect.co.uk/robin, where I posted about the Brixton Central square (and linked to from the start of this thread)
3. I happen to work at Tribal, which in this context is not relevant
and
4. I got the images by emailing Isolda McNeill who's named on the Lambeth Council press release and asking for them - she also gave me a contact name and number at Gross Max if anyone wants to ask them more questions
To add my opinion - I really like the idea (possibly influenced by the fact that I own a flat on Saltoun Rd), but think the current plans as visualised leave a lot to be desired - some sort of central cafe, some great pieces of public art perhaps
I think I'll be going to that meeting on the 6th Oct...
Robin
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
To be honest, from looking at the picture/model that someone posted up, the plan doesn't look particularly different to what's there now - it appears to just join the three spaces up, add a covered walkway and randomly arrange bits of crap (polo mints or whatever they are) on the street. It's shit.
I think what Hatboy posted here is my perfect idea of what could be achieved:
To be honest, I find a lot of the negativity on this thread a bit depressing. How often does a shit load of cash get spent on improving things for the people of Brixton? I think people should get along to the public meeting and make their views heard, rather than moaning about the drug dealers ruining the plan. The dealers are gonna be here, square or no square, so why let them ruin what could be a really positive project? I'd rather support the project and help mould it to something that could be useful, positive and exciting, than knock it.
I couldn't care less about the potential traffic problems caused by the closure of Effra Road - if you choose to drive in London, you choose to put up with traffic. A majority of people driving through central Brixton don't live in the area anyway. Once people start seeing the light and using public transport, perhaps it won't be such a problem (yes, I am an idealist/optimist!) As long as the buses are sorted in this plan then I'm happy.
I agree with those that have talked about preserving some of the identity of the three spaces - certainly the Peace Garden is unique and I'd like to see it largely untouched. The railings round the garden might actually be listed (??) so that might help prevent too many wholesale changes. Windrush Sq is totally underused and pretty useless. Anything they do to this area is great (and it's funny/ironic that the decision not to install benches [presumably to prevent it being a magnet for drinkers] has led to the square being underused.) The Tate Square could do with some work, as long as they don't get rid of the trees and retain some green space. I intend to make these points at the meeting and I hope others will too.
On the toilet question: IIRC, Lambeth are planning to trial portable urinals (with a view to installing pop-up toilets) in the next few months. This will be in the little road (Tunstall Rd?) opposite the tube. One would hope that by the time the new square is built (more than a few years I guess), the toilet question would have been resolved for some time. But they should still refurbish the Victorian toilets in Tate Square and reopen them, whilst providing a disabled facility elsewhere.
I think what Hatboy posted here is my perfect idea of what could be achieved:
How could anyone argue with that?hatboy said:
To be honest, I find a lot of the negativity on this thread a bit depressing. How often does a shit load of cash get spent on improving things for the people of Brixton? I think people should get along to the public meeting and make their views heard, rather than moaning about the drug dealers ruining the plan. The dealers are gonna be here, square or no square, so why let them ruin what could be a really positive project? I'd rather support the project and help mould it to something that could be useful, positive and exciting, than knock it.
I couldn't care less about the potential traffic problems caused by the closure of Effra Road - if you choose to drive in London, you choose to put up with traffic. A majority of people driving through central Brixton don't live in the area anyway. Once people start seeing the light and using public transport, perhaps it won't be such a problem (yes, I am an idealist/optimist!) As long as the buses are sorted in this plan then I'm happy.
I agree with those that have talked about preserving some of the identity of the three spaces - certainly the Peace Garden is unique and I'd like to see it largely untouched. The railings round the garden might actually be listed (??) so that might help prevent too many wholesale changes. Windrush Sq is totally underused and pretty useless. Anything they do to this area is great (and it's funny/ironic that the decision not to install benches [presumably to prevent it being a magnet for drinkers] has led to the square being underused.) The Tate Square could do with some work, as long as they don't get rid of the trees and retain some green space. I intend to make these points at the meeting and I hope others will too.
On the toilet question: IIRC, Lambeth are planning to trial portable urinals (with a view to installing pop-up toilets) in the next few months. This will be in the little road (Tunstall Rd?) opposite the tube. One would hope that by the time the new square is built (more than a few years I guess), the toilet question would have been resolved for some time. But they should still refurbish the Victorian toilets in Tate Square and reopen them, whilst providing a disabled facility elsewhere.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
The sculpture on the corner of Max Roach Park? Why can't it stay where it is?
newbie
undisambiguated
Brixton Hatter said:
I can
, although I can also see that his vision is far more likely to engage people than an empty square. I might be more receptive to the idea if hatboys scheme was on offer, but it's not. Albeit with huge reservations, because ultimately this is a grand vision, big project for which theres no obvious groundswell of demand. It's coming from outside, from people whose careers depend on large amounts of public money being spent on interfering with historic townscapes and who market themselves with drivel like 'the ordinary into the extraordinary'. This isn't a product of campaigning and debate within the Brixton community- or if it is, I've missed it completely.... I knew nothing of a consultation a couple of years ago- did anyone else? I can't recall discussion on here about it.
The central questions remain unanswered. What's it for? How will it improve the lives of the current population of Brixton?
I really can't see it. I can see house prices in the new cul-de-sacs (Rushcroft & Saltoun) rocketing, and an influx of tourist industry types opening retail/coffee outlets for the visitors it might[/] attract, though quite why many people would want to come to look at our world class open space is a bit beyond me. If visitors don't come, we're left with a world scale central void for a town scale community unable to support the retail outlets (which is what I presume the matchboxes on the model are).
There are opportunity costs here too: what else could be done with the WS space; what else could be done with the money. And what is more likely to actually improve quality of life? eg, Wyke Gardens (off Barrington Rd) is 'underused', Loughborough Park (is that what it's called) has problems reported here, why not spend the money there, where it might do some good for the immediate locals.
Limited improvement are required for the Oval- toilets, yes and replanting the Magnolias and it could probably do with a bit of a clean, but it's fundamentally a great meeting tree, and should remain as such. At different times all of the space is used. It works.
Windrush Square doesn't, but the model shows it with trees. So why not plant some trees there then? Three separate spaces, three different places to be.
Brixton Hatter said:
Sorry
If it's any help I agree with you about traffic. I'm sure their scheme can be made to work, and it's not the important issue.. But I'm not convinced that any money is good money- most of it will go outside the area to consultants, planners and contractors anyway, and it will act to increase the <Gword> pressure locally.
Friends of Tate Library want temporary improvement to rid Tate Gardens of drug dealers before the grand scheme. In my opinion this is unnecesary and a waste of money. They have I understand been awarded 50 000 to do this temporary clean up. The Victorian toilets WILL BE BULLDOZED unless people protest this.
Some of the other things mentioned above, like Loughborough Park, have been awarded money from Lambeth Opportunites Fund I think so we should see other improvements too.
There was lots of consultation on Central Square a couple of years ago I remember. In fact the same process repeated more than once. I don't think it's worth repeating all that yet again. But my fear is that now, when it really matters as the final design is created, that consultation, where people put forward ideas as I have above (and then), is being steamrollered by this grand design. Whereas the consultation should be informing the grand design.
Some of the other things mentioned above, like Loughborough Park, have been awarded money from Lambeth Opportunites Fund I think so we should see other improvements too.
There was lots of consultation on Central Square a couple of years ago I remember. In fact the same process repeated more than once. I don't think it's worth repeating all that yet again. But my fear is that now, when it really matters as the final design is created, that consultation, where people put forward ideas as I have above (and then), is being steamrollered by this grand design. Whereas the consultation should be informing the grand design.
