Brixton Central Square

[Robin]

Hello everyone.

Have you heard about this? I hadn't until yesterday - check out the details here - Brixton Central Square (if you have comments leave them on that page rather than on this forum so more people see it)

Looks pretty cool to me



Robin

 

[editor]

Thanks for the link, but I'm afraid I can't make head nor tail of those weird graphics and that grossmax website is a triumph of style over content.

It all looks like a 1st year graphics student's work to me.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

There's a thread about it here:

Brixton Central Square

 

[Woody]

A simple, line-drawn plan would have been more helpful. If it goes ahead,let's hope it's not like to over-designed, changing-rooms type mess that has taken forever to put in place (still not finished) near Streatham station. If there is a direct link between flashy graphics and fleashy execution I worry!

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Hello Robin, welcome to the Brixton Forum. We're really nice people, innit

The project is the one out of the first 10 of the Mayor's 100 new public spaces for London initiative.

Click here for info on "100 spaces..."

Click here to download a ridiculously large PDF update of the plans

One part of the plan which I particularly like, but which doesn't appear to have sunk in with many people yet, is the closure of Effra Road by 2008. I presume they mean the bit from the junction of Coldharbour Lane to where the road splits behind the church.

 

[Woody]

Sorry Robin mate - didn't notice it was your first post. So: welcome!

 

[Woody]

Hatter - any idea where the traffic would go?

 

[Bob]

Hatter - any idea where the traffic would go?

I think it would go round the other side of the church so there would not be a one way outside the Fridge...

Hello Robin

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Hello Robin, welcome to the Brixton Forum. We're really nice people, innit

Everybody that doesn't wear a hat is a nice person. Beware of the hat wearers - they're trouble

Robin - you could have introduced yourself. Now you've probably missed out on the Hobnobs

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I think it would go round the other side of the church so there would not be a one way outside the Fridge...

Hello Robin

They'd have to find somewhere else to start certain buses off from then wouldn't they?

 

[IntoStella]

Wow. I not only live right by but work for Landscape Review, so this is right up my alley. It took me a minute to get my bearings with the wooden model but now I see it. It looks great. But the plan and perspective thing is a bit daft. What is that supposed to be? The other one's quite cool. Everyone in landscape architecture is doing those computer graphics with black and white photoshopped-on people lately. PS welcome, Robin.

 

[wiskey]

what is THIS??? supposed to be telling me??

 

[lang rabbie]

what is THIS??? supposed to be telling me??

That someone on the design team is going through an early Soviet Constructivist phase?

Even though Gross Max have designed some successful schemes, this one looks suspiciously like "magazine architecture" to me.

At the danger of sounding like some "designing out crime" advocate, is a covered gazebo structure a practical option for this site, given the ongoing problems of dealing?

 

[hatboy]

That design is very disappointing in my view. Not nearly good enough.

 

[pooka]

That design is very disappointing in my view. Not nearly good enough.

I understand that Brixton Forum (the chair of which was on the selection panel) is to hold an event about this in the autumn. Doubtless everyone can throw in their two-pennerth.


I'm very inadept at interpretting those 'artist impressions' jobbies, even with loads of technology laid over, into what the place might look, feel, smell, sound like.

I suppose you've got to start with asking 'What's a Square for' and the answer must be something to do with 'Teeming with activity' - like Trafalgar, St Marks, the great campi of Italian cities - except for early morning, when its just the pigeons and street sweepers.

This one looks a bit sinisterly empty and windswept - nor is it clear what will bring the crowds in, or that there are sufficient crowds to fill it anyways, day after day. Perhaps the most imaginative use would be to shift the outdoor market onto it, on market days, and relieve the congestion in the retail centre. Rows of colourful stalls, beneath the camponile of the Town Hall, would have a lovely market town feel.

Well done for finding the pictures Robin....where did they come from? I can't get my way round the Max site. Shall Tribal be involved in the project?

 

[clandestino]

i can't picture it. the model isn't very clear and i just can't see where it's going to be.

is there something missing? like, perhaps, effra road? does this plan block that off?

it doesn't feel right to me.

 

[miss minnie]

can you see the church in the lower right corner? tate library in the upper left?

it looks like a bit of effra road will be closed off and incorporated into the scheme.

 

[clandestino]

i don't see how it's practical. surely it'll create huge traffic problems.

i'd rather see coldharbour lane pedestrianised.

 

[theBEAST666]

Could be good, but then again....
traffic in Brixton is a nightmare already. That new junction just before you get into brixton hasn't been tested yet either. And they stopped people turning right there up the road next to max roach park, do they think a measly curb and barrier will stop the brixton rude boy drivers I ask you?

 

[Gramsci]

Hello everyone.

Have you heard about this? I hadn't until yesterday - check out the details here - Brixton Central Square (if you have comments leave them on that page rather than on this forum so more people see it)

Looks pretty cool to me



Robin

What is perfect.co.uk/robin?Do you work for the Council?Why say post up comments on your website rather than here?You started the thread here-if people want to post up comments they can do it here.

 

[Gramsci]

Their was a two page article in the SLP about it-with a date for the meeting about it.Ill try and post it up later.The SLP artcicle was good they asked several people what they thought about it-including the manager of the Ritzy and Fridge bar.The comments reflected some of the concerns that I have of the scheme in general.

That joining up the 3 separate spaces will make dealing etc worse as it will spread it out over a larger area.Also that Brixton is a pretty wacky place-For example St Matthews Peace Gdn sometimes is where post clubbers crash out.Unless its heavily policed to the point where its just an anodyne space this wont work.However with the introduction of the Red Card Zone I believe this will be the first step to sanitise the space.As one of the people in the SLP piece said the harmless street drinkers could be pushed out.

The plans show not only Effra closed but the top end of Rushcroft Rd where it goes through what is now The Tate Gdns/Windrush Sq.The original consultation for the Sq proposed several alternatives-including one which did not close Effra Rd.

I think Pooka asked an interesting question-What is a square for?The proposals for a Sq started when New Labour were in power.As Lang Rabbie pointed out the plans seem like "Soviet" style.IMO the scheme had more to do with that "Modernising" New Labour administration wanting to do something that would make tham look good.Whilst the were getting stick for selling schools libraries etc.Also gave something for the new Brixton Neighbourhood Forum to do that was not in the Councils view whinging about services etc.

As often happens the scheme has now a momentum of its own.The GLA are involved.Council bureaucrats are in employment through it.It has taken a life of its own.To say that the whole project is misguided and that their are other issues in central Brixton that need sorting out first is to court scorn from the Council.

 

[hatboy]

I want this to happen. But I want it to be great. The linked plan is deeply inadequate.

 

[lang rabbie]

What is perfect.co.uk/robin?Do you work for the Council?Why say post up comments on your website rather than here?You started the thread here-if people want to post up comments they can do it here.

I think that's a fairly negative attitude. A minute or so's browsing of the site would have revealed that he's in advertising, sorry "new media". Perhaps Robin simply asked people to post comments there, because unlike the Urban 75 forums, you don't have to register to get on to his website.

Perfect.co.uk is now primarily a political 'blog.

However, it is a long standing independent website, which I browsed regularly back in the "good old days" when it was a gloriously minimalist guide [archived version here] to the best designed bits of the interweb thingy, with a rather handy toolkit attached.

It was some years before I realised that Robin was Brixton based. To the best of my knowledge, I've never met him.

brief glimpses of near perfection

What can I say? It should be fairly self explanatory. On the previous page are links to sites which make me draw a deep breath and help me to remember why I'm here

I update as and when I come across sites that are worthy of inclusion. My reasons for selection are varied, and change with time, but coming back to this site always seems to lift the cloud of client induced pessimism for the medium that sometimes descends upon me

enjoy

 

[Gramsci]

That explains it more clearly.Just get a bit iffy when people come on and say post up on my website etc with no explanation at the start of thread.

 

[newbie]

I suppose you've got to start with asking 'What's a Square for' and the answer must be something to do with 'Teeming with activity' - like Trafalgar, St Marks, the great campi of Italian cities - except for early morning, when its just the pigeons and street sweepers.

I've said before this whole project smacks of architects and town planners trying to win awards.

What is the question to which this square is the answer? How does it relate to 'what's in it for the people of Brixton?' or 'why does Brixton need or want a world class square' followed by 'what else could the money be spent on that we'd get more benefit from?'.

Perhaps the most imaginative use would be to shift the outdoor market onto it, on market days, and relieve the congestion in the retail centre.

No, No and thrice No. That's just going to kill the unique market and central Brixton daylife stone dead in an attempt to find a use for something inherrently pointless.


btw the view from the square on Robins website looks from the Ritzy towards the Town Hall and the bottom of Acre Lane. [ edit: erm, no it doesn't. Put that down to posting too early on a sunday morning. ] There is no traffic! So where has it all gone? This is one of the busiest roundabouts in S London, but the planners have airbrushed it out.

I contend that few will sit in this square with heavy buses and trucks and millions of cars and bikes roaring past. Not without anaesthetic anyway. Maybe on occasional days in suummer, but on a wet TRuesday morning in February? No chance.

What will this look like 5 or 15 years after the opening ceremony. Stained concrete, tattered canopy and still utterly empty without even anywhere to sit.

 

[pooka]

No, No and thrice No. That's just going to kill the unique market and central Brixton daylife stone dead in an attempt to find a use for something inherrently pointless.

I take your point, newbie. Though perhaps the facility for a Sunday market of some sort. Sunday markets in London are leisure pursuits as much as part of the supply chain and a distinctive Sunday market would bring people and money into the area.


In relation to the existing market, everything I know about successful markets elsewhere says that:

(1) They need very light-touch management, otherwise they're killed dead.

(2) But they do need some management.

The present outdoor market is not being managed at all and is steadily killing itself. Overcrowding by mega-stalls, shrouded in tarpaulin's and (increasingly) selling crap, including sub-standard fruit and veg.

It's sad to witness.

In respect of the square, I have the same apprehensions as you. Given that it is going to go ahead, what would you put there to make it busy?

I've said before this whole project smacks of architects and town planners trying to win awards.

To be fair, the chair of the Area Forum sat on the selection panel and is, I think, very enthusiastic. Maybe there's a groudswell of opinion beyond Urban75 for the project? Certainly hatboy's keen and I'd like to see something done with the dead spaces round there - St Matthews and Windrush Sq.

It could have been worse - word has it one of the whackier proposals was to build the City Academy on it! Perhaps that's just someone taking the piss.

 

[hendo]

Where's the toilet?

 

[miss minnie]

ah! a gentleman! the trees not good enough for you then?

 

[clandestino]

can someone please explain to me how this isn't going to cause huge traffic problems? pooka? robin? it seems like a major point is being ignored here just for the sake of a supposedly great idea. hatboy's right - if this does happen, it has to be done correctly.

perhaps drawing up a more realistic plan showing traffic flow with the square in place would be a start. how is traffic supposed to go up brixton hill for example? i get the 59 from outside the tube station to go home up the hill. where is that going to go if part of effra road's blocked?

surely brixton road/brixton hill/streatham high road is a major artery? blocking that seems like madness.

 

[pooka]

Ianw - I don't by any means present myself as an apologist for this scheme! Though I do think intelligent use of underused space in the area would be good - I'm not convinced a grande projet is the answer, for much the same reasons as rabbie, gramsci and newbie.

I imagine that the impact on traffic will depend on how much roadspace is provided by other means - if space is nicked from St Matthew's gardens to compensate for loosing the lower end of Effra - and how the loss of the gyratory is accomodated with lights or whatever other means of control (the gyratory itself is currently controlled by lights).

I note that the scheme is subject to TfL's studies, so we may find it declared infeasible or that it ends up looking hugely different to the current version - perhaps buses will be allowed to sneak back and forth across the Square (along the line of Effra Road) at 5mph with tramlike discipline? That would fit in with giving public transport the edge over private cars generally.