Brixton Central Square

[Gramsci]

Received email from Effra Residents Group stating that the Council had gone back on its promise to keep Effra Road open to traffic,

"The TfL planning application due in the next week or so will propose that Effra Road will not be open to local traffic(as agreed finally in 2005) but will be open to one way buses only.(Which will not give enough security to residents in the evening and which will create rat runs).

This is contrary to the leaflet recently distributed in Lambeth and publicised in the library.

Tfl and Lambeth are trying to bulldoze the planning application through in three weeks,so it is really important we all act quickly..we will email you next week on how we all can fight Lambeth and Tfl."

If you wish to receive info email ERG on ;

[email protected]

 

[flash]

Saw this and couldn't help but comment (incidentally I'm not directly involved with any of the parties) - just speaking from the point of view of having a bit of background knowledge and experience:

A couple of points to consider:

1) Do you actually want anything like this to happen in the area soon (i.e. before 2011)? (I'd actually say - possibly no here - reasons will become clear later on)

2) If you do want something to happen (which I get the impression ERG does) did anyone consider that TfL/Lambeth may have a limited window in which to spend the money (i.e. Ken gets re-elected next year which may effect TfL budgets in the short term - who probably bankroll through LIP's about half the traffic departments for boroughs in London due to the far reaching effects of the network).

The Central Square is in the first tranche of the "100 Public Spaces...." projects, Lambeth went red last May - lot of political issues involved - which may limit the funding windows (as both the highway and square projects have to be well into 7 figures from looking at plans, plus the living landmarks funding mentioned in the Standard last year, which would mean well into 8 figures is allegedly supposed to be scheduled to be spent on Brixton in the next decade). 2007 approval for 2008 funding is key, as I'd guess 2008 approval for 2009 will be limited.

3) If my thoughts on 2) are right (they could be wrong) - maybe the consultant hasn't worked the traffic model out yet and because of the tight programme they having to push a planning application through - and then change it (to what the library exhibition showed) once they have the application in (i.e. despite the consultation some years ago saying that residents would like the ability to close Effra - for the last two years as far as I am aware a scheme like the one mentioned above has never been on the cards? - it just wouldn't work with the road layout and volume of traffic - think about it!!!!).

The only way something like the bus idea stated above could happen would be if someone with no idea of the concept and political levergae to pull rank or a landscape architect was calling the shots (if that's the case - good luck)

4) The reason why I would say no to 1) - the Cross River Tram project - if all this money (as per 2)) is being spent on highway projects but the Cross River Tram may terminate down at St.Matthews in a couple of years (hence affecting the square and highway projects) why take the risk of wasting money and having to rip out what you've just put it? (okay the argument is probably that the money probably won't be there come 2011 - as per 2)) - I'd just be thinking of the public inconvenience. Cross River Tram has to end up at St.Matthews (or otherwise people's front porches in Pope's Road will end up getting the low floor treatment and becoming a tram platform) - Pope's Road cannot happen - it's not feasible.

The reason why it probably will is what may happen south of there in the coming years. TfL will probably have undoubtedly thought of this and should be able to tweak the designs - you just hope that someone makes the right decision. It's a question which needs to be asked (it's too late to ask when someone has stuck something in the ground).

My thoughts would be if you make Effra bus only and one way southbound, the tram would have to terminate in Brixton Hill (due to lack of space) - where do the cars go and the 100+ northbound buses per hour????

Sorry for the rant - needed to get it off of my chest and just hope the people this affects make the right decisions and ask the right questions.

 

[dirtyfruit]

Actually quite like the 'idea' of closing the Effra Road to traffic but without linking the peace gardens to windrush and square proper what is the point!?!

 

[ska invita]

Saw this and couldn't help but comment (incidentally I'm not directly involved with any of the parties) - just speaking from the point of view of having a bit of background knowledge and experience:

A couple of points to consider:

1) Do you actually want anything like this to happen in the area soon (i.e. before 2011)? (I'd actually say - possibly no here - reasons will become clear later on)
2) If you do want something to happen (which I get the impression ERG does) did anyone consider that TfL/Lambeth may have a limited window in which to spend the money (i.e. Ken gets re-elected next year which may effect TfL budgets in the short term - who probably bankroll through LIP's about half the traffic departments for boroughs in London due to the far reaching effects of the network). The Central Square is in the first tranche of the "100 Public Spaces...." projects, Lambeth went red last May - lot of political issues involved - which may limit the funding windows (as both the highway and square projects have to be well into 7 figures from looking at plans, plus the living landmarks funding mentioned in the Standard last year, which would mean well into 8 figures is allegedly supposed to be scheduled to be spent on Brixton in the next decade). 2007 approval for 2008 funding is key, as I'd guess 2008 approval for 2009 will be limited.
3) If my thoughts on 2) are right (they could be wrong) - maybe the consultant hasn't worked the traffic model out yet and because of the tight programme they having to push a planning application through - and then change it (to what the library exhibition showed) once they have the application in (i.e. despite the consultation some years ago saying that residents would like the ability to close Effra - for the last two years as far as I am aware a scheme like the one mentioned above has never been on the cards? - it just wouldn't work with the road layout and volume of traffic - think about it!!!!). The only way something like the bus idea stated above could happen would be if someone with no idea of the concept and political levergae to pull rank or a landscape architect was calling the shots (if that's the case - good luck)
4) The reason why I would say no to 1) - the Cross River Tram project - if all this money (as per 2)) is being spent on highway projects but the Cross River Tram may terminate down at St.Matthews in a couple of years (hence affecting the square and highway projects) why take the risk of wasting money and having to rip out what you've just put it? (okay the argument is probably that the money probably won't be there come 2011 - as per 2)) - I'd just be thinking of the public inconvenience. Cross River Tram has to end up at St.Matthews (or otherwise people's front porches in Pope's Road will end up getting the low floor treatment and becoming a tram platform) - Pope's Road cannot happen - it's not feasible. The reason why it probably will is what may happen south of there in the coming years. TfL will probably have undoubtedly thought of this and should be able to tweak the designs - you just hope that someone makes the right decision. It's a question which needs to be asked (it's too late to ask when someone has stuck something in the ground). My thoughts would be if you make Effra bus only and one way southbound, the tram would have to terminate in Brixton Hill (due to lack of space) - where do the cars go and the 100+ northbound buses per hour????

Sorry for the rant - needed to get it off of my chest and just hope the people this affects make the right decisions and ask the right questions.

Welcome to the boards: please use lots of paragraph breaks in your messages - otherwise thay are unreadable - if you can be arsed, please go in and edit your post adding lots of "returns". Thanks...

 

[flash]

Welcome to the boards: please use lots of paragraph breaks in your messages - otherwise thay are unreadable - if you can be arsed, please go in and edit your post adding lots of "returns". Thanks...

Done (hope that's enough, am happy to be here).

I thought the Square "proper" covered Windrush as well? and was linked to the ironically named Peace Gardens by some sort of pedestrian crossing/refuge? - if you close Effra at a guess your going to have queue's of traffic up Acre to Clapham Common (gut feeling). Also how do you get traffic down to Tulse Hill? (A permenant contraflow in St.Matthews wouldn't work).

 

[lang rabbie]

Done (hope that's enough, am happy to be here).

Also how do you get traffic down to Tulse Hill? (A permenant contraflow in St.Matthews wouldn't work).

In the last scheme I saw, TfL's design team tried to make it work by proposing lopping off part of the front corner of the forecourt of St Matthew's (The Brix) to make space for a left hand filter lane. (Some of the displaced bus parking bays moved around the back of the town hall IIRC)

I don't know whether this got halted by the heritage authorities, as you would have to move the listed stone gateways to do it.

 

[flash]

In the last scheme I saw, TfL's design team tried to make it work by proposing lopping off part of the front corner of the forecourt of St Matthew's (The Brix) to make space for a left hand filter lane.

Surely this would create difficulties for left turning HGV's? - i.e. stick a bus going up the hill in the outside lane (assuming two lanes southbound to Streatham), HGV turning left in the filter on the inside going to Tulse Hill, and two queues of cars in St.Matthews waiting to turn left and right out onto Brixton Hill. If you can't cut the corner back, not enough space (might still be not enough space even with a cut back - before you even involve the heratige lot). Also you have the problem with dealing with the island at the bottom (St.Matt's/Effra). I know there have been temporary arrangements there but a permenant arrangement would be difficult to feasibly work and enforce.

 

[Crispy]

This is one of those situations where history and heritage and inertia and the requirement for minimal disruption can really hamper a sensible solution. If you look at the area from above, there's absolutely tons of empty space that could be planned in any number of ways, with all sorts of options for the roads. But they'll never be built as they'd involve wholesale change of existing boundaries and roads (and would completely fuck the traffic up!)

 

[tarannau]

I'll you this much - the (self appointed) Effra Residents Group are making a massive song and dance about this, another cuntish, alarmist letter dropping through my door last week.

It's one of those busybody, pious-sounding A4 leaflets full of ALARMIST capitals and stress-inducing statements. I'd like to catch up with the gimp who's mainly responsible for producing these things and shovel them where the sun don't shine.

In nearly 10 years of living in Saltoun and Rattray, I've never actually seen, heard or met one of these ERG jokers, which is surprising as I've known people who've lived down these roads for nigh on my whole life. I admittedly haven't made one of their meetings (get back too late from work) but the whole petty Daily Mailesque tone of their communications makes my blood boil.

 

[newbie]

1) Do you actually want anything like this to happen in the area soon (i.e. before 2011)? (I'd actually say - possibly no here - reasons will become clear later on)

I remain unconvinced by the 'any investment is a good thing' argument

The Central Square is in the first tranche of the "100 Public Spaces...." projects,

As I've said before, creating a worldclass public space isn't something that should simply be imposed on a local community because some planner or politician is looking for an award. Brixton does not have the backdrop for a big league space of 'national or international importance'. Nor is the proposal for a barren concrete waste capable of satisfying such a grand ambition.

The Victorians got it more or less right with two separate, fairly intimate, spaces- Tate Gardens and St Matthews churchyard. Pushing the Drinkers Advisory Group into the churchyard has worked, but removing the fountain and seating has created another redundant bit of urban space- right next to the utterly useless Windrush Square.

The whole CS project is about finding a use for a previous bit of overblown urban 'planning' (also pols and planners seeking awards and kudos) the creation of Windrush Square as a public space. It used to be a coach garage, maybe it's the obvious place for the tram depot, although tbf it is a bit far from the tube and rail stations.

 

[Crispy]

You can see just how much space there is. Whether the present arrangement is good, or whether any changes would be worth it are exercises for the reader.

 

[pooka]

but removing the fountain and seating has created another redundant bit of urban space- right next to the utterly useless Windrush Square.

There was a presentation on this the other night at the Brixton Town Centre Forum. The proposal now involves.....seating! The chappy presenting said that the seats will have arms, to stop people sleeping on the....he seems to have thought that that was why they were removed just a couple of years ago.

In my own view the proposal as it stands is now more modest than the original, though still with an £8m price tag, and stands more chance of working. There is a suggestion for a cafe, possibly part below ground using the redundant public toilets.

This has dragged on so long, they should either get on with it or abandon it. It's always possible to find a hundred reasons for not doing something and the longer it goes on, the more will be found.

 

[newbie]

the drawing on the pdf (from link below) isn't clear enough to be sure what's intended, but there sure seems to be a lot of empty space. There's no seating shown in St Matthews- are the drinkers being airbrushed out yet again? But I'm afraid I don't know what 'Montseny' seats are...

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/Environment/Regeneration/BrixtonCentralSquareLeaflet.htm

It has dragged on, we've been discussing it here for 4 years or more, and they keep fiddling with detail whilst failing to persuade that there is any point to this scheme.

 

[lang rabbie]

Montseney seating is "designer" street furniture from Spanish company DAE.

The smaller "armchair" benches in the same design, may be what is proposed for Brixton.
UK stockist website

 

[pooka]

The smaller "armchair" benches in the same design, may be what is proposed for Brixton.

Those in the artist's impression drawing were much more blobby-futeristic than that.

 

[Crispy]

Those in the artist's impression drawing were much more blobby-futeristic than that.

They always are, until the contractor comes back and tells them how much 100sq.m. of custom formed concrete is going to cost.

 

[flash]

In my own view the proposal as it stands is now more modest than the original, though still with an £8m price tag, and stands more chance of working

The only thing that would trouble me is the cost - £8m for what's on that PDF (excluding the highway works). I suppose if that's what residents want though it must be a good thing. It just seems a touch high.

 

[Crispy]

Yeah, but now, the proposal doesn't really add anything. They could knock down one of the windrush square walls and join the paving up and have pretty much the same scheme. I say that if you're going to make large scale changes to the public realm, make it worthwhile. Otherwise, proceed incrementally.

 

[flash]

Yeah, but now, the proposal doesn't really add anything

Totally. So is there any point at £8 million, just because Ken comes from Lambeth, Lambeth went red, and there is politics involved with this? I would think it might be better to back down and save a bit of face, rather than proceed with something which may be unwanted, doesn't really add anything and which has a budget that goes up % wise faster than the one for 2012.

 

[Nickster]

From what I understood of the plans when they were last on display in Tate Gardens a couple of weeks ago, Effra Road is going to remain open to one or two lanes but the other side of the Peace Gardens will be two-way traffic (up and down Brixton hill). Rushcroft Road will be closed at the end. This was one of the three options mooted couple of years ago when there was the original public consultation (one of the others being to close off Effra Road completely).

I agree, tarannau - the leaflet did come across OTT alarmist and belligerent.

 

[Bob]

Effra road being closed is crazy if it really is happening (is it?) since traffic going by is one of the few things round central Brixton that encourages people being on the streets since somebody can at least see them.

I understand that the end of Rushcroft road is being closed too - which is truly insane - I would be unbelievably pissed off if I lived there.

£8m as well is ridiculous - you could spend the money on so many better things round Lambeth. Not least half a school. I know the money comes from the GLA primarily - but that's still money being wasted....

 

[lang rabbie]

You can see just how much space there is. Whether the present arrangement is good, or whether any changes would be worth it are exercises for the reader.

Oh no!

Those stray dots in the middle clearly mark vent shaft locations and give the game away about the secret escape tunnels from the Town Hall that members of the Lambeth Illuminati spent so much time arguing that Anna Key was hallucinating.

 

[Crispy]

they're trees

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Effra road being closed is crazy if it really is happening (is it?)

Effra Road isn't being closed - the council leaflet says so. This is because "community consultation" aparently came out against it. (Personally, I thought i was a good idea...but here's not the place to argue because there's a whole other thread on it and it aint gonna happen anway!)

The consultation also came out with two other pearls of wisdom. One was that people wanted a "safe" area - whatever that means. The other was "the space should be used to its full potential". So nothing of substance really! At least they have reinstated some seating in the new plan anyway....

 

[cllr]

I still can't get my head round the idea that spending £8million paving over Windrush Square is a good way to spend public money but that £1million cannot be afforded for social care services to 700 vulnerable people in "substantial" need of help.

 

[RushcroftRoader]

From what I understood of the plans when they were last on display in Tate Gardens a couple of weeks ago, Effra Road is going to remain open to one or two lanes but the other side of the Peace Gardens will be two-way traffic (up and down Brixton hill). Rushcroft Road will be closed at the end. This was one of the three options mooted couple of years ago when there was the original public consultation (one of the others being to close off Effra Road completely).

I agree, tarannau - the leaflet did come across OTT alarmist and belligerent.

I do live on Rushcroft Road, and if its closed to traffic its going to be a disaster. It will be dealer heaven down there if the police can't get down there quickly.
Does anyone have simple instructions about how to object to these proposals?

 

[flash]

I do live on Rushcroft Road, and if its closed to traffic its going to be a disaster. It will be dealer heaven down there if the police can't get down there quickly.
Does anyone have simple instructions about how to object to these proposals?

From a really cynical point of view it will be interesting when the PCO get involved and ask "what is going to happen to their taxi rank?" (one of the largest in South London I think) - especially because as far as I am aware the boss of the PCO lives locally (could be wrong on this).

I don't think ranks can just be revoked like that (believe there is a law against it)?
Where else in Brixton can you stick a rank for a substantial number of taxi's which is close to Acre/Coldharbour (major interchange) or the station? (don't think there is a lot of obvious space)
Surely there not going to let cab's drive on the expensive paving (okay you could make it deeper - 65 -100mm thick, to handle the over run nature of the vehicles but think of the grime it would leave - counter productive I think).

It does sound that EFG have been over the top about this though.

Also you will need to lobby someone to either get CCTV or a community policing office opened up at the end of Rushcroft Road - as if you have had shootings down there already, block it off and as the Roader said it might be a bit grim (P.S. I do know as well that CCTV doesn't stop people getting shot - it just helps to catch the person doing the shooting)

 

[Bob]

Effra Road isn't being closed - the council leaflet says so. This is because "community consultation" aparently came out against it. (Personally, I thought i was a good idea...but here's not the place to argue because there's a whole other thread on it and it aint gonna happen anway!)

The consultation also came out with two other pearls of wisdom. One was that people wanted a "safe" area - whatever that means. The other was "the space should be used to its full potential". So nothing of substance really! At least they have reinstated some seating in the new plan anyway....

Phew! Only the craziness of the £8m and closing Rushcroft road then.

 

[lang rabbie]

The planning application from TfL is now on Lambeth's website:

Alteration and extension of existing public space to join Tate Gardens & Windrush Square. Repaving and Landscaping involving removal of some existing trees, new trees planting, water feature and improved lighting. (Town Planning and Rush Common applications received)

The references are:
07/02757/RUS - for permissions under the Rush Common Acts
07/02758/RG4 - appears to be the main planning application, but I can't remember what a Regulation 4 case is.

The website claims that a site notice was posted on 24 July.

Where is it

 

[lang rabbie]

Just been working my way through the detailed designs...

After four years and hundreds of thousands of £s in design fees, all they have come up with for the former underground loos is a temporary hoarding