Brixton Central Square - Thread the Seventh

[gaijingirl]

You do have to bear in mind the difference climate makes, though.

This is a good point

I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea of trying to impose "cafe culture" on Brixton... Brixton just isn't a "cafe culture" kind of place and I don't think it would benefit particularly from trying to become one.

This, I'm not so sure about - I think that there would be quite a demand for a central outside meeting space. I think that you're associating "cafe culture" with affluence and expensive coffee because that's what it is in the King's Road and Marylebone and sort of what we've come to associate with this sort of thing in the UK.. - but I don't see why Brixton can't have a "cafe culture" (itself a loaded term) more fitting to the environment and populace (ie more realistically priced drinks and snacks) - are only the affluent allowed to enjoy such things? I don't see why it would be an "imposition" either?

By the way I think that it should also be born in mind that Brockwell Park exists nearby. This is significant because for most people living in Brixton, if they fancy going and sitting outside in the sun for a bit, they will go to the park which of course has its own cafe and other facilities. If the park wasn't there, and Brixton was one of those parts of town which suffers from a lack of public green space, then the functions that a central square could potentially provide for would be rather different.

Well, as it happens I practically live in the park and I would still like a central Brixton meeting point.

Anyway - it's a tough call this one. I feel that a lot of what I like about Brixton is the lively street atmosphere - and I think that it could work well in a very appropriate way in that area. Your point about the weather though is a good one and I might be totally wrong! I'm no town planner and I don't have any expertise in this sort of area - so it's all just a hunch really! I'd like to see it happen and I'd like it to be a success is all.

 

[quimcunx]

There have been times I've been in central Brixton and would have appreciated a friendly open space. Once I ate a salad at a bench table behind Mass, once my friend and I sat on the grass beside those tables, after a go on the swings and the other time I actually attempted this I sat on the grass in front of Mass but I moved when a woman had a pee in front of me.

Sometimes it would be nice to have an actual useable, friendly, central, green space with or without cafes. Brockwell park isn't much use if you are in central Brixton and only want somewhere to sit down for a half hour and eat a sandwich in the summer.


The hill starts at about the Police station, you soon notice if you ride a bike.

 

[gaijingirl]

The hill starts at about the Police station, you soon notice if you ride a bike.

Good grief - you guys need to try Knight's Hill on a daily basis - Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill are barely hills! And I'm hardly the fittest person on the planet...!

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Good grief - you guys need to try Knight's Hill on a daily basis - Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill are barely hills! And I'm hardly the fittest person on the planet...!

Don't tar me with the same brush, I've already said I'm embarrassed to call it a hill. My sister lives off Spa Hill so I know real hills.

 

[quimcunx]

Good grief - you guys need to try Knight's Hill on a daily basis - Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill are barely hills! And I'm hardly the fittest person on the planet...!

I know there are differences in inclines of hills! I grew up on a proper one with plenty of slopes just as steep as Knight's Hill. Doesn't alter the fact that the incline starts at the police station, something I failed to notice until I cycled it.

 

[gaijingirl]

I know there are differences in inclines of hills! I grew up on a proper one with plenty of slopes just as steep as Knight's Hill. Doesn't alter the fact that the incline starts at the police station, something I failed to notice until I cycled it.

huh.. well in all these years I never noticed the incline at the start of the cop shop, but since you're a well experienced expert in inclines with requisite childhood experience, I'll take your word for it and look out for it more in the future...

 

[newbie]

This, I'm not so sure about - I think that there would be quite a demand for a central outside meeting space. I think that you're associating "cafe culture" with affluence and expensive coffee because that's what it is in the King's Road and Marylebone and sort of what we've come to associate with this sort of thing in the UK.. - but I don't see why Brixton can't have a "cafe culture" (itself a loaded term) more fitting to the environment and populace (ie more realistically priced drinks and snacks) - are only the affluent allowed to enjoy such things? I don't see why it would be an "imposition" either?

Brixton has loads of cafes (including one right by Windrush Square) and plenty of cafe cultures. I don't get why Lambeth or TfL or whoever needs to subsidise a new one which will inevitably take business from the existing ones.

 

[ajdown]

Ah but are they poncey £3 'double mint choc chip caramel frappelattemochachino' cafes, or "Mug of tea 50p" proper cafes?

I'll give you one guess as to which would be popular with the council, and which would be popular with the locals.

 

[teuchter]

This, I'm not so sure about - I think that there would be quite a demand for a central outside meeting space. I think that you're associating "cafe culture" with affluence and expensive coffee because that's what it is in the King's Road and Marylebone and sort of what we've come to associate with this sort of thing in the UK.. - but I don't see why Brixton can't have a "cafe culture" (itself a loaded term) more fitting to the environment and populace (ie more realistically priced drinks and snacks) - are only the affluent allowed to enjoy such things? I don't see why it would be an "imposition" either?

All fair points. I'm not entirely sure what I think myself. I think part of it is just a concern that whoever designs the new square should have a good understanding of how Brixton works and what it's about. Rather than applying a standard kind of approach based on assumptions that might apply to other parts of London, or other cities. Of course, any good designer should do this as a matter of course.

There is also a danger, which I recognise, that what I like about Brixton might not be that same things that most people (including many that have been here longer than I) like about Brixton. I kind of enjoy the haphazardness of the town centre and the fact that certain areas have been claimed by those who others might consider undesirable or whatever. I'd find it a bit sad if some of this kind of character was washed away with a tidy, bland new square. I probably shouldn't assume that others necessarily feel this way of course.

Well, as it happens I practically live in the park and I would still like a central Brixton meeting point.

Well, it's true that a better central meeting point could be good. It would be nice to be able to arrange to meet people somewhere other than KFC corner or outside the tube, perhaps. I guess what I was saying is that there are certain functions that are better provided by the park (eg an all-day picnic or going for a walk in a bit of fresh air) and that that ought to be taken into account in the design, and that's one of the reasons I'd be sceptical about greening it all.

 

[gaijingirl]

I kind of enjoy the haphazardness of the town centre and the fact that certain areas have been claimed by those who others might consider undesirable or whatever. I'd find it a bit sad if some of this kind of character was washed away with a tidy, bland new square. I probably shouldn't assume that others necessarily feel this way of course.

I agree with you on that and for me the ideal square wouldn't be sanitized in that way. The drinkers outside the Ritzy have never bothered me personally and I don't see why they should go anywhere. I don't see why a new square should mean they have to move on. I really like the way the drinkers in the park were given their own space - admittedly it's semi-walled off to save the sensibilities of some, but it seems to have been a happy compromise (certainly I know a "full time" drinker there and it hasn't put him off.

The drug dealing I think, is a problem but it would be sad if Brixton could never do anything new or look to improve in any way because of this.

Brixton has loads of cafes (including one right by Windrush Square) and plenty of cafe cultures. I don't get why Lambeth or TfL or whoever needs to subsidise a new one which will inevitably take business from the existing ones.

As for taking business away from other cafes - I would say that local cafes/bars should be offered the chance to run any new stalls in the square (in the same way that the Lido has been trying to get local cafes/bars to bid for the cafe business by the pool). For any who are struggling, or those with ambitions to grow - it could be a good opportunity. There's no reason why it couldn't be seasonal either - a summer only affair - maybe with a special week around Christmas.

 

[ajdown]

The drinkers outside the Ritzy have never bothered me personally and I don't see why they should go anywhere. I don't see why a new square should mean they have to move on.

They shouldn't be there at all. There is no excuse whatsoever for public drunkenness.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

They shouldn't be there at all. There is no excuse whatsoever for public drunkenness.

 

[ajdown]

I don't know why Lambeth, and Brixton in particular, are so lax when it comes to dealing with antisocial behaviour. It's almost as if it's encouraged by not being cracked down on as it should be.

 

[pboi]

its also a pretty shitty first impressions.

Walk out of station, think to self, lets go for drink in Albert.

Crazy Preacher Man

Drug Dealers.

Drunks.

Arrive at the Albert needing a drink

 

[RushcroftRoader]

I really do think that improvements to the environment of an urban area produces a reduction in crime, so in that sense any investment in the square can't be such a bad thing. One of the reasons the High Street suffers from so much crime is that there are countless escape routes for the bad guys (buses, Tube, street exits etc). A bit of careful planning (OK, I know that is slightly an oxymoron), would reduce attractiveness of area for dealers, pickpockets etc.

 

[Crispy]

I don't know why Lambeth, and Brixton in particular, are so lax when it comes to dealing with antisocial behaviour. It's almost as if it's encouraged by not being cracked down on as it should be.

What would be your strategy?

 

[ajdown]

My strategy?

Probably unpopular round here, given that there are too many left wing do-gooders that do not feel that restricting someone's freedoms to act in an antisocial manner is acceptable policy.

 

[Crispy]

So what would it be?

 

[pboi]

more police presence

and help for the people that want to change

those who are happy drinking/taking drugs in public can fuck off

 

[teuchter]

its also a pretty shitty first impressions.

Walk out of station, think to self, lets go for drink in Albert.

Crazy Preacher Man

Drug Dealers.

Drunks.

Arrive at the Albert needing a drink

In what way does "crazy preacher man" offend you?

And I hope that once you get to the Albert you don't drink anything alcoholic, because doing so would be antisocial and there just isn't any excuse for it.

 

[pboi]

drinking inside a pub is anti social? wow, a nation built on anti social (ism?)


did I say offend? I said SHIT first impression

 

[newbie]

Ah but are they poncey £3 'double mint choc chip caramel frappelattemochachino' cafes, or "Mug of tea 50p" proper cafes?

I'll give you one guess as to which would be popular with the council, and which would be popular with the locals.

which 'locals'? have you a look at the cafes in Brixton, they're pretty much all different, they cater for substantially different 'communities' and between them offer a huge range of options for food or drink across a range of pricepoints.

One of my concerns about this idea is that if the subsidised cafe looks viable it will become a CostaNeroPret or maybe a Pizza Express or something. A bland chain, anyway. Bear in mind that moral majority types won't allow it to be a "Mug of tea 50p" place because that'll be colonised by the wrong sort, the sort who give Brixton a bad name.

 

[teuchter]

drinking inside a pub is anti social? wow, a nation built on anti social (ism?)

You said "those who are happy drinking/taking drugs in public can fuck off".

did I say offend? I said SHIT first impression

Why does he give you such an impression, then?

 

[pboi]

perhaps the word outside is needed for you to understand

sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums


The crazy preacher dude. I dont want to be preached at. If I wanted that I would go to church or a speakers corner. SHIT impression

 

[ajdown]

So what would it be?

Mostly what pboi said.

Help and advice for those with drink/drug problems to get sorted out.

Refuse help? Fine. Full weight of the law heading your way in 3.. 2.. 1..

 

[newbie]

As for taking business away from other cafes - I would say that local cafes/bars should be offered the chance to run any new stalls in the square (in the same way that the Lido has been trying to get local cafes/bars to bid for the cafe business by the pool). For any who are struggling, or those with ambitions to grow - it could be a good opportunity. There's no reason why it couldn't be seasonal either - a summer only affair - maybe with a special week around Christmas.

but why? why does this project deserve public subsidy so that whoever gets the franchise gets that 'good opportunity'?

It's not like there's no choice...within a hundred yards of WS are two of the most popular local cafes and at least two others plus a pub.

It's also not like there's a huge public policy requirement to move the centre of gravity away from 'central' Brixton and towards that end of the high street. If anything, surely public money would be better spent moving the cofg the other way, into regenerating the decrepit areas around the market and the Rec.


E2A or is there? is this all about providing somewhere convenient for Town Hall staff at lunchtime?

 

[snowy_again]

sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums

but those sitting and getting trolleyed in a wine bar or the beehive are completely different?

 

[snowy_again]

Mostly what pboi said.

Help and advice for those with drink/drug problems to get sorted out.

Refuse help? Fine. Full weight of the law heading your way in 3.. 2.. 1..

haha, care to cite which laws you would invoke, or would you have to create some?

 

[teuchter]

perhaps the word outside is needed for you to understand

sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums

What about people who are drunk but have gotten drunk in an authorised indoors space, walking about outdoors?

 

[pboi]

by the letter of the law they are yes.

and even not using the letter of the law ... the cockroaches hangaround all day smoking, drinking and generally being bums. I view that differently to sitting in a pub all day and drinking.

We were talking about Brixton impression after all. Not the merits of who is the holier bing drinker.


Again. They make bad impression.