British "false-flag" terrorist ops in Iraq?

[camouflage]

Yeah, who needs proof! Sod it, all it ever does is make life harder because we've got to think rather than just state opinions!

Internet forums are for mostly stating opinions, spreading rumours and general chit chat. Proof is a matter for the courts.

 

[camouflage]

They're not AFAIK. Zarqawi's lot are terrorists, and are referred to as such. People who carry out mass indiscriminate killings of civilians are terrorists, and described as such.

Uhuh, and who told you Zarqawi is behind all that, or that this super-human everywher-at-once criminal supermind is even still alive. Did you ask for proof or just assume that because some newsreader told you it must be true?

 

[camouflage]

I guess at heart this is a matter of trust. The British government has already demonstrated that it is prepared to lie to the British public, ignore overwhelming public opinion (despite us being a 'democracy', whatever the fuck that means anyway) and shown that it is far from reformed or over the heady buzz of Empire, it's prepared to jump into bed on an ill-advised American imperial adventure, and to be honest I don't think the leadership could even claim the invasion of Iraq is in the British national interest (the needs of the many of our 'tribe' at least) in fact so far it's proved the opposite.

Therefore when British soldiers are caught skulking around in a nation we have invaded and participated in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians for no disernable good reason (other then the psycopathic self-interest of some obscured power-circle or other), one can reasonably assume that our soldiers were up to no good.

Soldiers follow orders, so some untrustworthy body who gives orders probably instructed them to go and do something that serves some sort of imperialist or corporate advantage, regardless of cost to human life. Our country has a long history of imperialism, and clearly wants to go back to it (it's fallen of the wagon as it were), I think it's reasonable that the only curb on what British forces get upto is what the leadership can get away with.

I don't trust us, we're capable of anything and have proved we don't mind killing civilians to get what 'we' want from Iraq.

 

[grogwilton]

i cant help thinking what people in the UK think is kind of irrelevant to the situation. The most important fact is rumours have been going round iraq that the occupying forces are doing false flag ops, and this will only add fuel to the fire.

 

[camouflage]

i cant help thinking what people in the UK think is kind of irrelevant to the situation. The most important fact is rumours have been going round iraq that the occupying forces are doing false flag ops, and this will only add fuel to the fire.

I think that's best for Iraq actually, the masses will be suspicious of anyone who encourages one Iraqi community to attack another. Much better chance of kicking out the occupiers currently trashing and bleeding their nation.

 

[kyser_soze]

then based on what's subsequently happened in bringing the country close to stone age, one must conclude that either

leaving looted luxury cars (mercs & Lexus)

You don't generally find luxury cars, looted or otherwise, in stone age countries. And I don';t know what TV footage of Iraq you're watchiing fela, but stone age societies don't generally have massive markets for consumer electronics, functional mobile phone networks etc. Parts of the cities and the country have been levelled, but it is indicative that the rebuilding is happening that never reaches some people's perceptions.

Foreigner - you're conflating two very different politicians and ideas by assuming that Blair did this out of some kind of imperial project. As with the Balkans, Blair is a 'liberal hawk' - essentially a liberal politician who also believes that military force should be used to depose dictators and undemocratic regimes.

Fela - divide and rule is NOT in the interest of the US in this case because the 'divide' bit would create too much tension, as is being witnessed at the moment. Your assumption that because ALL imperial nations not just the UK, have traditionally used D&C as a means of ruling ignores the current situaiton - do you serioulsy think if the US is simply after oil and contracts that it's in the interests of the USG and corporations to keep Iraq in the mess it's in now? Of course it isn't - a stable representative democracy offers far more opportunities for business than one where you ave to pay your employees danger money to work in what amounts to a war zone.

 

[Fruitloop]

You don't generally find luxury cars, looted or otherwise, in stone age countries. And I don';t know what TV footage of Iraq you're watchiing fela, but stone age societies don't generally have massive markets for consumer electronics, functional mobile phone networks etc. Parts of the cities and the country have been levelled, but it is indicative that the rebuilding is happening that never reaches some people's perceptions.

Iraq has had all this shit for ages. Didn't Uday have a whole fleet of luxury cars? You appear to have bought the US/UK propoganda.

 

[kyser_soze]

Not at all - I've got 2 mates working in the Gulf who visit Iraq about once a month who report that consumer goods, mobiles, cars etc are all big sellers and have a high level of ownership and that the whole 'stone age' thing is there but not at the level you'd expect so soon after an invasion on the scale of the USUK action.

One visits Baghdad and the other travels all over so it's not just 'pockets' they're talking about.

 

[Fruitloop]

So in areas without actual combat operations people have gone back to selling stuff? I don't see what bearing this has, or how it is in any way surprising.

 

[kyser_soze]

My post was a response to fela's assertion that the country was in the stone age, so it's relevant to THAT comment.

Jesus, have people stopped reading the context and statement/reply process of somerthing?

 

[camouflage]

Bollocks to consumer good made in Europe or Asia, what about Iraqs hospitals, education, utilities, Iraq's own industries, child mortality, nutrition, cancer/leukemia rates etc?

Warzone Anarcho-Capitalism does not a society make, you can find all those things Somalia too.

 

[camouflage]

Foreigner - you're conflating two very different politicians and ideas by assuming that Blair did this out of some kind of imperial project. As with the Balkans, Blair is a 'liberal hawk' - essentially a liberal politician who also believes that military force should be used to depose dictators and undemocratic regimes.

Liberal Hawk eh, and when the bombings done, the economy is liberalised, opened wide to foreign investment, standards and regulation dropped, sovereinty undermined. Another word for neo-liberalism is Smash n Grab. Bliars in that business.

Its the Smash n Grab Global Empire.

 

[kyser_soze]

Bollocks to consumer good made in Europe or Asia, what about Iraqs hospitals, education, utilities, Iraq's own industries, child mortality, nutrition, cancer/leukemia rates etc?

Warzone Anarcho-Capitalism does not a society make, you can find all those things Somalia too.

Point is it isn't stone age which was fela's contention and my point.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Internet forums are for mostly stating opinions, spreading rumours and general chit chat. Proof is a matter for the courts.

And this is all rumour, that's all. By the way did you know that kate moss is one of those giant lizards? The entire crack story thing was made up by the freedom fighters that use the tabloids as a base of operations.

 

[camouflage]

And this is all rumour, that's all. By the way did you know that kate moss is one of those giant lizards? The entire crack story thing was made up by the freedom fighters that use the tabloids as a base of operations.

I suggest you try fluphenazine decanoate.

Or-

According to you nothing should be discussed and no opinions expressed unless youz got proof. Nobody got da right ta say nuthin coz they can't prove nuthin. Kapish?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I suggest you try fluphenazine decanoate.

Or-

According to you nothing should be discussed and no opinions expressed unless youz got proof. Nobody got da right ta say nuthin coz they can't prove nuthin. Kapish?

We don't waste time on unsubsatntiated crap about 9/11 do we? So we are wasting time on this for what reason exactly?

No evidence, lack of cirmustantial evidence that would be expected, the only reports being used as evidence coming from fiercly partisan groups...

FFS any second now Bigfish is going to turn up with the "Allies planted a bomb in my car" story again

 

[camouflage]

We don't waste time on unsubsatntiated crap about 9/11 do we? So we are wasting time on this for what reason exactly?

No evidence, lack of cirmustantial evidence that would be expected, the only reports being used as evidence coming from fiercly partisan groups...

FFS any second now Bigfish is going to turn up with the "Allies planted a bomb in my car" story again

Always good to counter the assumptions. Don't be a slow-boiling frog, trust no one with the power to address millions, not our media, not our army, and certainly not the gurn'ment. If they treat a suggestion as ridiculous groundless popicock, then take a close and open-minded look. That's my guidline anyway. So I don't see any reason not to discuss what things look like to me, and this situation looked WELL dodgy.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's another way to look at this. Suppose you were a senior spook and someone gives you the following order "We want you to stir up sunni/shiite hatred and/or hatred between individual shia and sunni factions by means of false flag operations. We'd also prefer it if you didn't get caught doing this and embarass us."

How do you proceed? I think the way you proceed is by recruiting some keen but dumb young hotheads, using a plausible asset of the right ethnic and.or religious persuasion to convince them that this is allah's great plan for them and that blowing their fellow citizens to bits is a mighty blow against the infidel oppressors.

Having a couple of SAS guys from Essex or someplace dress up in silly wigs does not seem like the smart approach to me. If you needed their expertise, e.g. for making some clever bombs or something, then they need not appear to the actual bombers. A much better plan is to have the bombers be exactly what they appear to be, and have an asset who remains myterious and shadowy (who you can then conveniently fail to track down) as their "terrorist mentor".

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Always good to counter the assumptions. Don't be a slow-boiling frog, trust no one with the power to address millions, not our media, not our army, and certainly not the gurn'ment. If they treat a suggestion as ridiculous groundless popicock, then take a close and open-minded look. That's my guidline anyway.

Don't trust the government

So I don't see any reason not to discuss what things look like to me, and this situation looked WELL dodgy.

In other words you'll belive anything you like as long as it fits with your lack of trust. I Dub thee LittlePeebs.

 

[camouflage]

Here's another way to look at this. Suppose you were a senior spook and someone gives you the following order "We want you to stir up sunni/shiite hatred and/or hatred between individual shia and sunni factions by means of false flag operations. We'd also prefer it if you didn't get caught doing this and embarass us."

How do you proceed? I think the way you proceed is by recruiting some keen but dumb young hotheads, using a plausible asset of the right ethnic and.or religious persuasion to convince them that this is allah's great plan for them and that blowing their fellow citizens to bits is a mighty blow against the infidel oppressors.

Having a couple of SAS guys from Essex or someplace dress up in silly wigs does not seem like the smart approach to me. If you needed their expertise, e.g. for making some clever bombs or something, then they need not appear to the actual bombers. A much better plan is to have the bombers be exactly what they appear to be, and have an asset who remains myterious and shadowy (who you can then conveniently fail to track down) as their "terrorist mentor".

Yes, I'm sure their doing that too.

 

[camouflage]

In other words you'll [consider anything belivable] as long as it fits with your lack of trust.

Fucking A.

I Dub thee LittlePeebs.

That, was uncalled-for.

 

[nks487]

Off couse its an option. you may fall for ,there supermen (and one man of theres can fight a 100 other troops) line and that there training covers everything , but i don't.

What about during the fauklands war ,when the sas had to be rescued from south georgia to stop them freezing to death.

Of course the SAS guys are not supermen! Although the selection and training is intense. They are not known as the best special forces regiment on Earth for no reason. Look up Operation Houndsmith Dec 1941 in France.

I really don't like you trying to belittle 22SAS with your comments. I would love to know about your combat experience in -10c environs?

 

[james_walsh]

Of course the SAS guys are not supermen! Although the selection and training is intense. They are not known as the best special forces regiment on Earth for no reason. Look up Operation Houndsmith Dec 1941 in France.

I really don't like you trying to belittle 22SAS with your comments. I would love to know about your combat experience in -10c environs?

I wasn't belittling anyone, if you look at the post i was replying to ,which was suggesting they were next toincable of making a mistake. I could have mentioned there lack of success against scud lauchers in 1991(though that may be more disputted).and theres plenty of operations during WW11 that did not run smoothly.
The guy was sounding off like a pub drunk.
Most war zone or counter insurgency operations can not be planned to the degree that an isolated anti-terrorist operation can(like the storming of the iranian embassey).

Anyway im well expierenced in snowball ops from the late 70's and early 80's.

 

[fela fan]

Point is it isn't stone age which was fela's contention and my point.

Well even that point was faulty mate. Coz i never contended that at all:

"If we remember their comments to us before the war that they were going there to bring democracy and freedom to the iraqi people, then based on what's subsequently happened in bringing the country close to stone age".

From post #26

Notice the last four words of what i said there. And there's more if you look at the use of 'bringing', but i'll leave that for you to try out mate.

 

[cemertyone]

Of course the SAS guys are not supermen! Although the selection and training is intense. They are not known as the best special forces regiment on Earth for no reason. Look up Operation Houndsmith Dec 1941 in France.

I really don't like you trying to belittle 22SAS with your comments. I would love to know about your combat experience in -10c environs?

Oh fuck right off with you and your SAS mates FFS.." belitting the SAS" he don`t need to they do it well enough for themselves...state thugs and assisins is what they are.
As for being the " best Special forces on Earth".....why don`t you tell that to their Polish equalivent who kicked their fucking asses recently at the S.F. compitation at Fort Brag with incidently a team that was half in size.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course the SAS guys are not supermen! Although the selection and training is intense. They are not known as the best special forces regiment on Earth for no reason. Look up Operation Houndsmith Dec 1941 in France.

I really don't like you trying to belittle 22SAS with your comments. I would love to know about your combat experience in -10c environs?

1941? Are you quite sure about that, are you absolutely sure that Houndsmith went down in 1941? Here's a clue: What year was D-Day?

Any historian or student of WW2 history worth their salt is able to give slightly more accurate dates, mate. Try a bit fucking harder, eh?

You wouldn't be one of those sad plastic hardmen who work as security guards for Tesco, fantasise about having been in "the regt" and chat up women by showing them your "Who Dares, Wins" tattoo, would you?

You know what I don't like? Cock-knockers who haven't got a clue shouting the odds and coming out with pseudo-hard wank along the lines of "I really don't like you trying to belittle 22SAS with your comments". Your own laughable historical inaccuracy belittles Stirling's babies more than anyone else has on this thread.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Just a question, who cares? "My special forces are harder than your special forces" fights are rather pointless aren't they.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just a question, who cares? "My special forces are harder than your special forces" fights are rather pointless aren't they.

For whatever odd reason some people invest a lot of pride in this sort of thing, usually people who've never been nearer to the military than attending an open day.
It's not as if special forces units tend to be deployed against each other anyway, as they're usually tasked with infiltration, infrastructure destruction and evasion, not set-piece battles with other elite units.

 

[pin retaining]

Oh fuck right off with you and your SAS mates FFS.." belitting the SAS" he don`t need to they do it well enough for themselves...state thugs and assisins is what they are.
As for being the " best Special forces on Earth".....why don`t you tell that to their Polish equalivent who kicked their fucking asses recently at the S.F. compitation at Fort Brag with incidently a team that was half in size.....

So where are these photos your SAS dad has then, IRA man ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

So where are these photos your SAS dad has then, IRA man ?

Interesting.

Who did you used to be, or are you one of them there arrse bandits?