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Britain's shame: importing trains

ymu said:
I'd rather they went on paying skilled workers skilled workers' wages, increasing the tax income for the state but more importantly increasing the rate of flow of money to the people who need it. People on the poverty line don't spend money - people with a comfortable wage do. They spend it in local shops and leisure outlets and all sorts of local business who will struggle a little less and pay more tax back to the treasury.

It's a lot more efficient than paying it to a foreign corporation who will not spend the money locally, and probably won't even reinvest it in the UK.

So you are advocating inefficiency? No one is suggesting that the Japanese workers are not paid a good wage, just that Japan have the technological and manufacturing capacity in this area that we lack. We could regain that capacity but it would require such huge government spending that it wouldn't worth while.
 
This is globalisation at work here. There's no physical reason why we can't be self-sufficient in these things, but look at it from the global economist's POV. I mean, it makes sense to build your factory near the raw materials and the labour, right? Putting the UK's alumnium refineries near hydro damns is a good thing, and nobody would be complaining of the 'shame' of 'importing' aluminium from eg. Wales (I have no idea where aluminium is made in this country, btw). Globalisation has just shifted the definition of local outwards. The growing interconnection of global capital means that 'local' now means the whole world, and it makes perfect sense to specialise industries and jobs on a global scale.

Of course, this results in odd imbalances in various countries, often to the detriment of any 'traditionally local' industries. You also get stupid things like perfectly good fertile land being monocultured, the product sold, and the money used to import food.

The oil crash will lessen this effect, as transport prices rise, but I have no idea how expensive things will have to get before it makes 'economic sense' to revert to localised industry. We should be doing it anyway, to conserve energy and maintain cohesive communities.
 
ymu said:
We have a pro-globalisationista amongst us! Please, please, tell me why you believe. I so want to understand.

((((pro-globalisationista))))

I refuse to talk to anyone in flares, long sideburns and a sheepskin car coat, unless they're from the Sweeney.
 
bi0boy said:
So you are advocating inefficiency? No one is suggesting that the Japanese workers are not paid a good wage, just that Japan have the technological and manufacturing capacity in this area that we lack. We could regain that capacity but it would require such huge government spending that it wouldn't worth while.
Yep. We'll just keep exporting the jobs and the pesky working-class will soon follow. Hurrah!

Efficiency, as defined by capitalism, is not a good criterion to judge an socio-economic decision - unless you think Reaganomics is where it's at. You know, the economic ideology that has no explanation for unemployment except for laziness, and thus cannot even explain the Great Depression of 1929 (ref: Joseph Stiglitz, former chief of the World Bank, keen globalisationist but harsh critic of stupid economic policies, in "Globalisation and it's Discontents").

You can define efficiency in other ways of course - it should be defined as the most cost-effective use of available resources to achieve ends that society as a whole agrees are desirable. eg If we, as a society, place high value on having well-trained and well paid workers, it's a big effect and thus "efficient" to deploy considerable resources to achieve it.

This is exactly how the NHS makes it's healthcare purchasing decisions - it attempts to purchase the greatest health benefit for the resources available. No expensive but largely useless Alzheimer's drugs if it means more dead premies or elderly people in wheelchairs for the rest of their still active lives because we can't afford enough incubators and hip replacements. It's not only simple and obvious - it's used by every country which is serious about managing spiralling healthcare costs (we can spend more, but there is always a point where we need the cash for schools and transport and social security etc - resources are always finite).

When only cost-effectiveness (more usually cost-utility these days) is taken into account, economists consider this to be using "efficiency" as the sole criterion. The other one sometimes taken into account is equity - the rules may be bent a little for particularly disadvantaged groups of patients if the grounds are sufficiently compelling to override the preference for purchasing greater health benefits for other patients.

So that's the other reason why I said my way was more efficient - beyond the simple economics of circulating resources within an economy instead of letting them leak to other economies. It is - if we're allowed to use the term in it's true sense and not it's garbled capitalist sense - more efficient.
 
editor said:
We fucking invented them. We exported them all over the world. British locomotives were a pinnacle of technology and design. They broke records. They looked great. They lasted for decades and were widely admired.

So what the fuck has happened to the industry? We can't even make our own trains any more and have to spend hundreds of millions buying them off Japan.

Glad it's not just me, saw this story on the TV news, and announced my displeasure to the assembled throng of family only to watch the tumbleweeds blow by until they could get on with yabbering about Nintendo, etc.

Of course we're also historically inept with trains as well, had we adopted Brunel's broad gauge it'd be much easier to design fast trains which can go around corners.
 
editor said:
We can't even make our own trains any more and have to spend hundreds of millions buying them off Japan.

Thats a disgrace. Surely China's quote would have come in cheaper!
I suspect backroom trade agreements may have played a part in this.
Such as our one with france that closed our coal industry down.
 
London_Calling said:
((((pro-globalisationista))))

I refuse to talk to anyone in flares, long sideburns and a sheepskin car coat, unless they're from the Sweeney.
First off I'm a girly, and that's probably - no, scrub that - IS the most accurate bit of your statement (I do have girly sidies).

When someone lazily resorts to mocking a (laughably inaccurate) stereotype, even they have admitted they have no actual arguments left.

I think how I think because I have a brain and I like to use it. You're free to do what you like with yours - including sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la in a desperate attempt to wipe out the last little bit of grey matter that might be putting up a protest about the appalling quality control it has to put up with.
 
Crispy said:
Putting the UK's alumnium refineries near hydro damns is a good thing, and nobody would be complaining of the 'shame' of 'importing' aluminium from eg. Wales (I have no idea where aluminium is made in this country, btw). .

aluminium isn't made anywhere Crispy, it's an element, it just sort of lies around in little piles waiting to be picked up :)

do we still make anything in this country?
 
ymu - Can I invite you to not patronise so vigorously when you have such difficulty with your apostrophes. It's also Friday afternnon, and time to go. Have a good one!
 
JTG said:
do we still make anything in this country?
Last I read, the UK is the 3rd or 4th largest producer of TVs in the world. But, of course, even that simple stat hides a multitude of globalisation related complications.
 
London_Calling said:
ymu - Can I invite you to not patronise so vigorously when you have such difficulty with your apostrophes. It's also Friday afternnon, and time to go. Have a good one!
Oops. :o

I'm always shit with them without a proper proof-read. *sigh*

Randomly missing w's (that is a correct use of the little feller btw) are due to fag ash in the keyboard - but the apostrophes are all mine.

Where? Point me to my shame and I shall attempt to do a pointless edit because it's gonna bug me now.
 
London_Calling said:
Nah, I’m dyslexic, you’ll have to bear the shame without me highlighting it further.
Nah - I couldn't find one either. :D ;)


Nice sidestep though - grammar police is always a good backup to ridiculous stereotype.
 
London_Calling said:
Last I read, the UK is the 3rd or 4th largest producer of TVs in the world. But, of course, even that simple stat hides a multitude of globalisation related complications.

so, we're good at cross dressing. Anything else?
 
JTG said:
aluminium isn't made anywhere Crispy, it's an element, it just sort of lies around in little piles waiting to be picked up :)

do we still make anything in this country?

Aluminium might be an element but it does not lie around in piles waiting to be picked up. Aluminium is extracted from bauxite (Aluminium Oxide) which is the most common mineral on the earth. Unfortunately the extraction requires vast amounts of electricity which makes its process very expensive. This explains the proximity of Aluminium extraction plants to hydro electricity power stations.
 
Hocus Eye. said:
Aluminium might be an element but it does not lie around in piles waiting to be picked up. Aluminium is extracted from bauxite (Aluminium Oxide) which is the most common mineral on the earth. Unfortunately the extraction requires vast amounts of electricity which makes its process very expensive. This explains the proximity of Aluminium extraction plants to hydro electricity power stations.

You're never coming to one of my parties
 
Crispy said:
There is still tain manufacturing in Britain isn't there though? Bombardier makes loads of the london commuter trains.

They got the contract for the railway the Chinese are building that goes to Nepal. Highest railway in the world. Insulated from the permafrost. Pressurised carriages. There was a big thing in Wired about it.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/chinarail.html

Mind you it points out that Bombardier are a Canadian company...
 
Bombardier took over ADtranz, which used to be British Rail Engineering Limited (BREL) before priviatisation.
 
London_Calling said:
I'm far too polite to point out anything else :)
Oh - I assumed you meant it was in the post you were referring to at the time. Silly me - I should have gone back and checked them all. Doh!

I always have to go back and check the possessive its - they're a bugger. :mad:

Still - it remains an excellent example of the use of the grammar police (or rather the specialist punctuation subdivision) to avoid responding to anything of substance. ;)
 
Detroit City said:
sometimes its easier to buy than to build...

Sadly yes, when your own train-building industry has largely gone down the shitter.

What we've lost is BREL - British Rail's train-building arm. They built the Intercity 125s and 225s, and built them well. Then after the railways were privatised there was a hiatus in orders for new rolling stock and the York works went out of business. Alstom and Bombardier are about the only firms building trains in the UK now...
 
There's that famous capitalist efficiency at work for you! Don't it just make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?
 
ymu said:
Still - it remains an excellent example of the use of the grammar police (or rather the specialist punctuation subdivision) to avoid responding to anything of substance. ;)
To keep things in context, if anything at all it’s a reminder that if you’re inclined towards excessive patronising, it’s a good idea to cover your arse first.
 
editor said:
So you have no problems with the dismantling of Britain's manufacturing base (with the loss of related traditional skills), and have no problem with the UK becoming increasingly reliant on other countries and multinational concerns?
neither do you appearently just so long as those skill bases of set are being erroded in other countries and not here... why sholdother countries deskill or lose out on traditional manufacturing merely so we can be the lead exporters...

plaain simple facts, the best workmen always get orders for their handicraft. we don't have the best workmen and arguably never did have. ergo we didn't get the orders, japan by contrast spent and spent and spent on it's work force and trained them to a level where they are some of the most highly quailifed and best workforces out there as a result they [produce better good and have qualiy cotnrol you want to raly against this from happening in the UK first rally against the state of accepted poverty designed education...
 
We were exporting trains until pretty recently, garf. The InterCity 125 was certainly exported - to Australia, as the XPT. It's not a matter of not having the requisite skills, or it wasn't until recently: it's a matter of no longer having the capacity.
 
London_Calling said:
To keep things in context, if anything at all it’s a reminder that if you’re inclined towards excessive patronising, it’s a good idea to cover your arse first.
So does that mean you are actually going to explain your "look at the calendar" comment? I'd like to know why you think we're making such wonderful progress doing it like this, and why we should continue to do so.

Really - it's how debate works, you know. It's OK to have a quick giggle at an error, but it doesn't make you look clever unless you can also answer the question you appeared to be sidestepping (with the laughable stereotype/grammar police double-repeat gambit - bit predictable, but competently performed).
 
Roadkill said:
We were exporting trains until pretty recently, garf. The InterCity 125 was certainly exported - to Australia, as the XPT. It's not a matter of not having the requisite skills, or it wasn't until recently: it's a matter of no longer having the capacity.
so we were weakening austrailian train industry and that makes it ok?
 
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