Britains first islamic state ?

[jæd]

Why are you so deprived of politeness?

...

I suppose with such an attitude you expect now no less then a link to an audio version, of course also in your language?

I liked the first version...

 

[Aldebaran]

i am simply asking why you cannot say that they are not behaving as muslims according to your beliefs?

There is an immense difference between what you call "not behaving" as Muslims and "not being" Muslims.
If a Christian commits a murder would other Chrisitans make of it that he is all of a sudden not a Christian, or would they say he is a Christian who, according to his beliefs, commits a sin?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I really think that you may be in a very small minority though, as you obviously believe that there is no place for the concept of "yes" and "no" in your version of Islam.

Correction: There is no place in my functioning brain for that type of black/white thinking.

salaam.

 

[jæd]

Hence if I say a word had to be invented in Arabic to be able to explain a Western invented word used in the West to describe Muslims, that means indeed that no such concept about Muslims exists = it is an alien concept that has no connection whatsoever with Islam and Muslims.

So... You seem to be saying that if a westerner comes up with the idea of fundementalism then it is impossible for Muslims to us it. But what if a Muslim came up with the same idea.

Out of interest... Don't you find it weird that westerners have picked terms and ideas from the arabic world and then used them for centuries. Yet you are saying the reverse isn't possible. We nicked most of our numbering system from the arabs, as well as lot of basic mathematical theory. But for Arabs to pick up ideas from the westerner world is impossible...

(The rest of your comment makes me think you are trapped in a prejudicial approach of anything any Muslim might say.)

I think its more likely you are prejudiced against westerners... I wonder if the western concept of "hogwash" has been explained to you...

 

[jæd]

Correction: There is no place in my functioning brain for that type of black/white thinking.

It is not funny at all that Westerners are so irritating arrogant to claim... a) they know everything better then any Islamic scholar or Muslim would
b) Western invented words and what they mean for Westerners MUST be applyable to Islam and Muslims
c) stubbornly hold onto that although they have no clue what they talk about (and are repeatedly said that too.)

Another western concept for you "turkey shoot"...

 

[Aldebaran]

Aldebaran I'm getting a bit lost here. I did ask for some clarification a page or so ago and can't really see an answer.

I think it is answered in posts 99-100-101 and maybe also 120, but when re-reading your post: can you clarify what you mean exacty with "different types" of Muslims?

salaam.

 

[winterinmoscow]

I think it is answered in posts 99-100-101 and maybe also 120, but when re-reading your post: can you clarify what you mean exacty with "different types" of Muslims?

salaam.

Well to my undeducated eye, it would look like there's a small difference between the Islam that is practiced in Saudi Arabia from the Islam that is practiced in other parts of the world. It would also seem that there's a difference between more modern Muslims and more traditional people. By that I mean that when I was at university I knew a few Muslims who drank, I also know many who didn't.

Also, how would you account for the difference between Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims? I do apologise if I have got the terminology wrong here. And what about those who practice Sharia law and those who don't. I'm not sure how it could be said that these groups are the same, which seems to be what you're saying.

To me, from the outside, it would look like different groups focusing on different aspects of Islam, but I'm prepared to be corrected on that if I am wrong.

I don't want you to think that I am being critical, it just seems that you are outspoken on this subject and I genuinely can't understand some of what you are posting. You might well be making a lot of good points, but I need them spelling out to me.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well to my undeducated eye, it would look like there's a small difference between the Islam that is practiced in Saudi Arabia from the Islam that is practiced in other parts of the world. It would also seem that there's a difference between more modern Muslims and more traditional people. By that I mean that when I was at university I knew a few Muslims who drank, I also know many who didn't.

Maybve you could re-read my post explaining a bit how Islamic Law developped. There is also a difference between Shia and Sunni Islam when it comes to follow the interpretation of scholars. Yet all while in theory every Sunni Muslim is free to follow his own interpretation or a scholar of choice, in practice every country adheres to one of the historical law schools. (Ar.madhab)

Hence depending on this madhab and next depending if, where, in which aspects and which domains Shari'a was incorporated in a country's constitutional laws and juristiction, you get already a first diversification. In practice it is also normal for Muslims to seek advice of a trusted scholar, which provides for a further differentiation and appreciation within countries and their societies.

You give an example of Muslims drinking alcohol: That is prohibited for any Muslim, no matter where he lives. Hence that is only an example of people chosing not to follow the commands of their religion, not a question of belonging to a different "type" of Muslims.

Also, how would you account for the difference between Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims?

There is no difference in their belief in Allah, Al Qur'an, Muhammed as a prophet of God.
In a former post I explained that this historical split was first of all caused by differences between Muslims about Muhammed's succession and that from there the doctrines developped and sectarial divisions within them (especially in Shia Islam).

I don't want you to think that I am being critical,

I don't think you are critical. I think you are observant and maybe I am a bit confusing.

salaam.

 

[winterinmoscow]

There is no difference in their belief in Allah, Al Qur'an, Muhammed as a prophet of God.
In a former post I explained that this historical split was first of all caused by differences between Muslims about Muhammed's succession and that from there the doctrines developped and sectarial divisions within them (especially in Shia Islam).

.

Thanks for your post. It does help. However I am still not sure how you can say that there is no difference. As I read it, you argue that difference is a Western concept that can not be imposed on Islam. Fair enough but if there is a historical split, wouldn't that wouldn't that note denote some kind of difference, albeit not fundamental, but difference all the same? You said that different doctrines have emerged, I just can not see an argument therefore that Muslims are the same.

Thank you, by the way for your response, it does help.

 

[Aldebaran]

Thanks for your post. It does help. However I am still not sure how you can say that there is no difference.

Where did you read that?

As I read it, you argue that difference is a Western concept that can not be imposed on Islam.

No, that argument goes enterily about the use of "Fundamentalist" for people I call "Radicals" and the casual printing of this US concept - invented to refer to certain Christians - on Islam and Muslims as if what is meant by that word can be used there. Next posters kept on claiming that I should "accept" that because *they* find it appliable. While that is an impossibility they don't seem to understand or do not want to understand.

You said that different doctrines have emerged, I just can not see an argument therefore that Muslims are the same.

It depends first of all on what you mean by "doctrine" yet I think there is some fundamental misunderstanding at work here of what I actually mean.
Maybe a simplified version can clear it up:
1. Muslims are Muslims because they are Muslims. Like humans are humans because they are humans.
2. A Muslim can reason or act in a "non-Islamic" way. A human can reason or act in a way one would come to describe as inhuman.
3. This does not make the Muslim less a Muslim. Like acting inhuman does not make a human less a human.

salaam.

 

[winterinmoscow]

Where did you read that?

I'm sorry but that's the impression I got, largely from what's been said in former posts. Sorry.

It depends first of all on what you mean by "doctrine" yet I think there is some fundamental misunderstanding at work here of what I actually mean.
Maybe a simplified version can clear it up:
1. Muslims are Muslims because they are Muslims. Like humans are humans because they are humans.
2. A Muslim can reason or act in a "non-Islamic" way. A human can reason or act in a way one would come to describe as inhuman.
3. This does not make the Muslim less a Muslim. Like acting inhuman does not make a human less a human.

salaam.

Yes that is really interesting and does clear up some confusion.

I think I get a bit more where you're coming from. I may still be a bit confused when I've had time to think about it but thanks for posting back, I appreciate it.

 

[GeorgeEliotFan]

One thing I notice is most of the people that support extreme stances like this; whether it be in the form of the BNP, fathers for justice or zealous 'islamists' is they tend to be former crooks, and bullies.

so whilst the more 'educated' and responsible Muslims might not support this kind of thing, you will always get a group of rebel rousers (sp?) who like to shout very loudly.

the kinda people who feel that on release from prison for drug dealing the best way they can repay society is to try and drive a wedge between different groups and incite violence whilst hiding behind their veil of self righteous piety.

 

[GeorgeEliotFan]

I also tend to look at the teachings of a religion like I would a parties manifesto.

They are usually hard to fault, but its the way they are practised that counts.

(this goes for all religions) Its all very well being a 'religion of peace' on paper but if in practise its implemented in a violent and repressive manner then .....

 

[kyser_soze]

From what I can see, Alderbaran is making the point that, regardless of their interpretation of the Koran, all those who follow it's teachings are Muslim, just as all those who follow the Bible are Christian, just that they have differing takes on it.

I also kind of agree with it on the subject of fundamentalism - I can see why it doesn't like a term originally used to describe a Christian religious movement that was (and is) primarily occupied with attempting to subvert modernist thinking in all it's guises and 'get back to the fundamentals of the faith' - i.e. literal belief in the bible text (cerationism, word only 7,000 years old, virgin birth and resurrection etc) as opposed to belief in the ideas of the bible. It's argument is that because in Islam the Koran is believed to literally be the Word of God, it must be hewed to to be a true Muslim - i.e. Islam is at it's very base a fundamentalist, absolutist religion.

 

[GeorgeEliotFan]

fussing over semantics in my opinion

 

[Aldebaran]

It's argument is that because in Islam the Koran is believed to literally be the Word of God, it must be hewed to to be a true Muslim - i.e. Islam is at it's very base a fundamentalist, absolutist religion.

In my view you are to begin with already completely wrong with your interpretation of "fundamentalist" in Christian context.
Next you are completely wrong in projecting that same word (what's new in this thread?) onto Islam and Al Qur'an.
Next you are completely wrong with your assessment of my posts.
Taking into account the tone and wording in your other posts to -or about- me, none of that comes as a surprize. Maybe you should remove the blindfold of prejudice that clouds your view.

salaam.
(By the way, in my world people do not refer to persons as "it")

 

[Astramax]

There are 1.6m Muslims in the UK; that is 2.6% of the population, so no immanent take over due anytime soon.

As we appear to be at the beginning of a “Clash of Civilisations” between the Islamic and Western worlds, I don’t think the number of Muslims in the UK is likely to go up to much and will probably reduce somewhat over the next couple of decades.