Britain 'under' an anarchist 'government'?

[5t3IIa]

rmp3 couldn't frame an argument if his life depended on it.

He's an 'umble man. You make it too hard for him, elitist

 

[TremulousTetra]

there are a number of problems with the op. the most obvious one, to me, is that the way it's phrased suggests that the strikes and insurrection (partially successful = failure) would have been led by the workers themselves,

Rod Sleeves words suggested to me quite simply, is that it would be a transitionalnperiod where NOT all workers had not been won over to and Anarchism [socialism].

while rmp3 a) wants people to speculate on what forms working class mass action might lead to,

yup. In fact talk about anything you want about that kind of situation. Just talk about it!!!!

and b) has as his subtext the idea that the working class would have to be led,

absolute and complete rubbish. Where does he say that?

while his comparison with spain, which had seen decades of widespread anarchist activity, is in some way a potential model for what might occur. fucking apples and screwdrivers, but nothing more than i'd expect from such a dishonest poster.

fully accept your apples and screwdrivers criticism. Completely different periods and different circumstances, yes. Which I suppose makes your criticisms of SW based upon the Russian revolution equally dishonest?

 

[TremulousTetra]

It's their fault you can't frame an argument? Poor you with your humble ways

poor you with your inability to detect of humour.

 

[5t3IIa]

Back-peddling is humour now?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Back-peddling is humour now?

You did take it seriously....

 

[5t3IIa]

I wasn't talking to you, if you noticed.

Don't delay the revolution responding to me though, will you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Rod Sleeves words suggested to me quite simply, is that it would be a transitionalnperiod where NOT all workers had not been won over to and Anarchism [socialism].

don't hide behind RS's words - situated in a different context - to deflect the inadequacies of your scenario.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which I suppose makes your criticisms of SW based upon the Russian revolution equally dishonest?

link please.

 

[FreddyB]

But I am willing to bet you will not be prepared to illustrate how to start a discussion on, what it would be like in an anarchist automous zone, in the transitional period.

What is this transitional period, how did it come about?

 

[5t3IIa]

link please.

You're makng it too difficult

 

[Pickman's model]

You're makng it too difficult

rmp3 asked you to do his research?

 

[5t3IIa]

rmp3 asked you to do his research?

I think he wants you to do it

 

[Dillinger4]

I think he wants you to do it

Somebody has to do it. It definitely isn't going to be him.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Is the persnal [attack] political?

 

[5t3IIa]

 

[Dillinger4]

There is nothing political about this thread. Nothing.

 

[TremulousTetra]

There is nothing political about this thread. Nothing.

true.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Britain 'under' an anarchist 'government'? < this is obviously an attempt to mirror our recent thread on Trotskyism. So please forgive the obvious errors in the title.

Say that a transitional sitution was brought to being on the back of mass strikes, and a partial workers insurrection that was just enought to allow a much expanded existing anarchist force to form a communist automous zone.
There would actually be enough electoral and rank and file workers on the street support for the idea of a radical anarchist automous zone to actually be accpetable to a critical mass of people, but that wouldn't mean they were actually anarchists themselves, just willing to give it a chance.

Lets say we take the rather assumptive and generalised points above as read.

What would actually happen?

That depends on the limits of imagination and the impulse of external actors to reinstate the status quo.

Here is one 'answer', the Spanish revolution.

Just some of my notes on a very short over what is covered.

Spanish the strongest anarchist movement in the world.
The Spanish revolution in many ways more radical than the Russian revolution.
The fascists and communists played major roles in defeating the Spanish revolution.
At least three major areas share with SW 1, solidarity of workers, anarcho syndicalism. 2. The idea revolution from below 3. Internationalism.
At least four key areas of disagreement. 1 state, take control without taking power. 2. Creating liberated spaces of communism here by now. 3. Apoliticism, it is of no interest for workers to participate in political parties/institutions. 4. inedividualism the deed can inspire the masses to revolt.

Again, you're making generalised assumptions from a partisan "reading", but lets say that's all by the by...

Anarchism and The Spanish Revolution - Discussion
Andy Durgan 2005
www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk
http://www.resistancemp3.org.uk/m2005/anarchism-and-the-spanish-revolution-andy-durgan.mp3 speech
http://www.resistancemp3.org.uk/m20...spanish-revolution-discussion-andy-durgan.mp3 discussion

I'm sure the links are very nice for those that aren't on dial-up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know, this was the problem with the other thread. But just use the same principle as when watching a film, the principle of suspension of disbelief, and imagine what it would be like in this encapsulated autonomous zone. Obviously some time later, you could suggest how internationalisation would occur.

The same way internationalism (that's proper internationalism, not just making nice comments about your brothers-in-struggle at meetings) always happens.

 

[ViolentPanda]

obviously the form of execution would be determined by tribunal, but stabbing might not be so far off the mark.

I favour the sharpened entrenching tool, comrade.

 

[ViolentPanda]

feel free to write it as it should have been written.

I bet you don't.

Your OP is without doubt a perfect rendering of YOUR perspective. It does, however, make some of the usual assumptions and generalisations about "anarchism" that I've corrected you about before, so while your points may be accurate for describing some anarchists, they don't hold true for all.

 

[In Bloom]

At least three major areas share with SW 1, solidarity of workers, anarcho syndicalism. 2. The idea revolution from below 3. Internationalism.
At least four key areas of disagreement. 1 state, take control without taking power. 2. Creating liberated spaces of communism here by now. 3. Apoliticism, it is of no interest for workers to participate in political parties/institutions. 4. inedividualism the deed can inspire the masses to revolt.

What sort of "anarchist" are you basing this off? Your OP seems confused. First you wrongly conflate "solidarity of workers" with anarcho-syndicalism, then you claim that anarchists ting that "it is of no interest for workers to participate in political...institutions" and that "inedividualism the deed can inspire the masses to revolt" (which presumably is either a reference to 19th century "propaganda by the deed", which was pretty much gone as a major tendancy around the time of the Spanish Civil war or a reference to modern Bonanno style insurrectionism, which is bollocks). The latter two "areas of disagreement" are nothing to do with the sort of anarcho-syndicalism that uses the SCW as a model.

As to the general question, it's impossible to say, because the forms of struggle will depend on what comes out of the self-activity of the working class, which can never be fully predicted in advance. We can look at tendancies that emerge over and over in revolutionary situations to gain general principles, however, such as direct democracy, workers self-management, workers councils (or some derrivative thereof), federalism and, last but not least, independence from bourgeois political parties and the state.

 

[Bakunin]

I favour the sharpened entrenching tool, comrade.

Rough-sharpened, naturally. That's what my grandfather always recommended.

 

[Carousel]

Hmm. Well seeing as the anarchists other than the Stonehenge types essentially bear the same sanctimonious social justice junkie ideology as their trad-left/liberal comrades, even down to nationalisation and so on in some cases, the other thread likely does a fair job of answering RMP3's question. I mean, it's really just communists trying to avoid association with the intensely uncool other sundry leftists with their youth sections and embarrassing trade unionists and so on. If they ever develop proper politics it looks more like the left communism of the ICC anyway, minus the "Infantile Disorder's" peculiar brand of beta-male social ineptitude.

 

[Dillinger4]

 

[FreddyB]

Hmm. Well seeing as the anarchists other than the Stonehenge types essentially bear the same sanctimonious social justice junkie ideology as their trad-left/liberal comrades, even down to nationalisation and so on in some cases, the other thread likely does a fair job of answering RMP3's question. I mean, it's really just communists trying to avoid association with the intensely uncool other sundry leftists with their youth sections and embarrassing trade unionists and so on. If they ever develop proper politics it looks more like the left communism of the ICC anyway, minus the "Infantile Disorder's" peculiar brand of beta-male social ineptitude.

That's a wide net you've cast there, I suppose there's sure to be someone bored enough

 

[Pickman's model]

That's a wide net you've cast there, I suppose there's sure to be someone bored enough

can such things be?

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Resistancemp3 - The same question does not work with anarchists as they do not seek to form a government. Theoretically the situation might arise for a trotskyist party as they claim to seek to form a government of a worker's state, or one that is capable of building a transitional state as a stepping stone to a stateless society, as far as I can see anarchists don't.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Resistancemp3 - The same question does not work with anarchists as they do not seek to form a government. Theoretically the situation might arise for a trotskyist party as they claim to seek to form a government of a worker's state, or one that is capable of building a transitional state as a stepping stone to a stateless society, as far as I can see anarchists don't.

I know mate. That is why the title question was changed to have apostrophes around the words under and government, and why your original comments where changed to talk about autonomous zones etc.

The point is, none of them offered to answer your question either. You do it, you pose similar question about anarchist autonomous zones in a transitional period, and see if you can get them to answer it. I bet you can't. It's not your fault, it's thier's.

 

[TremulousTetra]

What sort of "anarchist" are you basing this off? Your OP seems confused. First you wrongly conflate "solidarity of workers" with anarcho-syndicalism, then you claim that anarchists ting that "it is of no interest for workers to participate in political...institutions" and that "inedividualism the deed can inspire the masses to revolt" (which presumably is either a reference to 19th century "propaganda by the deed", which was pretty much gone as a major tendancy around the time of the Spanish Civil war or a reference to modern Bonanno style insurrectionism, which is bollocks). The latter two "areas of disagreement" are nothing to do with the sort of anarcho-syndicalism that uses the SCW as a model.

As to the general question, it's impossible to say, because the forms of struggle will depend on what comes out of the self-activity of the working class, which can never be fully predicted in advance. We can look at tendancies that emerge over and over in revolutionary situations to gain general principles, however, such as direct democracy, workers self-management, workers councils (or some derrivative thereof), federalism and, last but not least, independence from bourgeois political parties and the state.

Anarchism and The Spanish Revolution - Discussion
Andy Durgan 2005
www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk
http://www.resistancemp3.org.uk/m200...ndy-durgan.mp3 speech
http://www.resistancemp3.org.uk/m200...ndy-durgan.mp3 discussion