Fascist ideas have to gain traction and it looks like they have in Austria. Given ruling class and right wing propaganda is a constant, what has changed? And we’re back to material conditions again.
Britain First among accounts thrown off Twitter
- Thread starter MightyTibberton
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Fascist ideas have to gain traction and it looks like they have in Austria. Given ruling class and right wing propaganda is a constant, what has changed? And we’re back to material conditions again.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
scottish sectarianism tho?
Exactly. They capitalise on existing divisions.
ska invita
back on the other side
the key material condition at play here that has changed imo is millions of people forced from their countries of birth across north Africa and the middle east . The corridor of Europe from turkey to Germany appears to be in a state of reactionary hysteria
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
Almost universal high-speed internet access.
I don't say it's the whole thing - the Crash, the Syrian civil war, etc are a perfect storm for fascists - but I think it's a big part of it. I never remember the exact dates, but wasn't it a few decades after the invention of the printing press that the existing order in Europe completely fell apart? I think we're in a similar period now with regards to the disruptive influence (not using disruptive as a pejorative!) of this new technology.
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
When I'm busily reporting racist accounts on Twitter, I always find a load of Rangers supporters!
Yes fascists can reach more people and quicker (as can we) but people still need convincing of their arguments (as they do ours).
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
No. That’s not the key one imho. It is one, of course. But I think the end of Keynesian stability/security and generally rising living standards is more important.
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
I agree. I think they're very good at it though. They argue that because they've always been on the fringes and unofficial (as has a lot of left wing thought too) that they are practised in the ways of "alternative media". They're certainly very good at simplistic propaganda - see the Meme war stuff around Trump, and it's interesting that that was less successful in non-English speaking European countries that have a more sophisticated political culture.
Their arguments are always simplistic - someone else's fault! (I saw an Alan Moore interview the other day in which he called fascism, the ultimate failure to take personal responsibility to paraphrase) - and work well. They're also very effective in their assault on objective truth and are cashing in on a wider disatisfaction with "elites" and "experts" - not just in the sense of the wealthy and powerful, but also academics, researchers and cultural figures.
I think it's fair to chuck in Russian influence too - though their operations are said to promote extremes and division as much as they pick a side, so in the US they've been found to be behind White Nationalist Texan seperatists and some fringe Black nationalist sites too.
ska invita
back on the other side
Its a spectrum though with some important commonalities. A bigger boat, different deck, but sailing in a similar direction from what i can see
We've had this conversation before of course, but its not (at this stage) about membership of or voting for political parties its about spreading ideology and changing social norms. Tweets and Facebook posts are undeniably a factor in that. Lots of people I know have the experience of "I cant believe my mate/family member X just shared a (slightly covert) Far-Right meme!". Its different from previous rises in the right: different dynamics, different circumstances, different outcomes. But it feels undeniable that its getting traction to me
And thats where we disagree... Maybe what you say is more the case in the UK, but not in Austria - based on my reading of it anyhow (it would be good to read some proper research on the Austrian vote). But to make it totally clear I'm not for a second saying living standards are irrelevant or playing that aspect of it down. I just think racism/xenophobia/islamaphobia has a life of its own that doesn't need to immediately tally with any material living standards quota. That would be a reductionism that equates racism as solely an outcome of economic inequality.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Only if you make the term far-right so wide as to be meaningless. The Labour party in both the UK and Aus have engaged in anti-immigrant rhetoric, if your going to put the Tory right wing and BF in the same boat you should do the same with Labour/Labor and whoever else. By that stage the differences are far greater than the similarities and you've made the far-right so wide that any sensible analysis is lost.
The overwhelming majority of people that share BF stuff are either not aware of who BF are or not aware that they've generated that tweet/post. Now that doesn't make it ok but in the grand scheme BF are not driving people to the far-right, if anything they are being pulled along by current.
A reductionism that no one has made.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
french but the graphs are clear enough. I had to google ovrier though, its 'worker'. Profound regional and gender splits as well by the look
Les votes à la présidentielle autrichienne révèlent les clivages du pays
that was linked from here:
Weeks Population: The Demographics of the Austrian Presidential Election
for the presidential election
ska invita
back on the other side
agree up to a point. of course its worth being as precise as possible. though ethno-nationalism is the main thing in common i was alluding to and i dont think many in the labour party are believers in that
my point is it doesnt matter if they know where its coming from if they agree with sentiments
ska invita
back on the other side
thanks. got to do some ovrying, will be back later
seventh bullet
sovietwave
The left too should be scrutinising 'experts' and their 'objective truth.'
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What do you mean by ethno-nationalistm, because my undersanding of the term the numbers of ethno-nationalists is tiny in both the Tory party and UKIP and proportionally even smaller among voters.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Bit gnomic for me.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Also not entirely clear on this one. Genuine question - are you suggesting anti-fascists should campaign for greater restrictions on immigration during economic crises?
RainbowTown
Well-Known Member
Just a token gesture by Twitter (ie. Twatter) that ultimately won't change a thing. It signifies nothing of consequence. Where's there a will, there's a way.
Truth is, more and more of social media is becoming highly toxic. It's a cesspit. Corrupting and narcissistic in the extreme. A number of my friends no longer use the brain-rotting Facebook nor Twitter. I myself gave up on both a long time back. One of the best things I did.
Truth is, more and more of social media is becoming highly toxic. It's a cesspit. Corrupting and narcissistic in the extreme. A number of my friends no longer use the brain-rotting Facebook nor Twitter. I myself gave up on both a long time back. One of the best things I did.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I've read that in the past fash in scotland gravitated towards organising using sectarian lines.
e2a heres a result for 'scottish sectarianism and the far right'
The majority of work carried out under the UK Government’s counter terrorism strategy Prevent in Scotland is aimed at tackling sectarian and extreme right wing ideologies.
I'm pretty sure I first read of this stuff (not the modern prevent thing in the link obviously, the history of scottish sectarianism and the far right) in Beating The Fascists tho...
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19force8
For the avoidance of faith
I hadn't meant to suggest that fascists organised solely around immigration, but that it was a thread running through their organisations even during times of boom.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
oh I get what your saying after reading through properly lol. But as boom times didn't come for everyone and we've seen a widening of disparity post-crash plus the refugee crises* , would it not then be fair to say that the expansion of the far rights influence can be tied in part to both factors? I'm wondering about austria more than in general atm tbf
*which obviously the far right will and have exploited in the way they elide these things with immigration and so on
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19force8
For the avoidance of faith
I think the long boom of the 50s and 60s saw pretty much everyone's living standards rise. Though definitely fascists use what's handed them by the more vicious end of the MSM.
ska invita
back on the other side
Maybe it isnt the right term, but by my understanding it works. A view that the National unit has its proper members who have a certain heritage and other who don't really belong.
There's a spectrum here as to what such people think about those who aren't of that heritage, which goes from grudgingly tolerable in small numbers up to the need to forcibly repatriate or at its most extreme as a final solution, erradicate.
A spectrum something like Norman Tebbit > Nigel Farage > Enoch Powell and on up towards the different shades of Nazism. To me such people do sail on the same boat on this particular sea.
They should certainly have a position on it if it directly contributes to the rise of the far right. Otherwise they’re both combatting fascism whilst helping it spread.
ska invita
back on the other side
and that position should be.........
Progressive arguments regarding immigration rather than reactionary ones. Given its a function of Capital and Capital exploits people it follows that all immigration isn’t necessarily a good thing. I’m sure you’ve got the stock position that it is though.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Ah yes, those "progressive" arguments against immigration
Ah yes, those "progressive" arguments against immigration
Because anything but open borders is racist isn’t it? Which other aspects of capitalism do you blindly champion?
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Well, "working for wages" benefits the capitalist. Does that mean we shouldn't get a job?
Btw, I'm still waiting for you to make these progressive arguments against immigration.
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