Brit white working class: "voiceless"

[Paulie Tandoori]

I guess it depends on what the voice is. For example, the tabloids and papers like the Evening Standard would claim to speak for them - though some would say they're really trying to put words in their mouths - after all, how many of the owners and journalists are working class, how can an editorial line put forward by wealthy capitalists represent the working classes? Politicians haven't spoken for the white working classes since Thatcher bribed them into buying into the anti-social culture and fucked their futures.

How do you speak for the white working classes as a wholeanyway? If you try and put forward your experience as a member of the working classes someone always comes along and tells you that you either don't count because you're not working class enough, or that you don't really care about them, or that your opinion isn't right.

You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.

 

[zenie]

Ah, I see. So when you said "the voice of the white working class was what kept Thatcher in power for so many years" you didn't actually mean it. It's hard for me to spot the incredibly intelligent subtleties of your argument if you don't express them

Maybe he was just trying to create a debate, instead of everyone agreeing at this outrageous article

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Maybe in the marketing dept that you and Rupert and Chlamydia work in, but not in the world I recognise

You would say that, though. You're a Struggling Belonger with Rural Recycler as your rising sign.

 

[Spion]

You would say that, though. You're a Struggling Belonger with Rural Recycler as your rising sign.

LOL

 

[El Jefe]

The key is the research itself - what the exact questions were, how the sample was arrived at, and in what context were they asked.

You ask a bunch of white, working class people if they feel alienated / disenfranchised, you're likely to get a high level of agreement. You could then announce this as "brit white working classes" feeling voiceless, but it wouldn't necessarily be reliable data

 

[Spion]

Maybe he was just trying to create a debate, instead of everyone agreeing at this outrageous article

Well, there's a danger in trying to 'create debate' by putting forward a one sided argument that looks like it's driven by prejudice.

And is the article outrageous? I'd have thought it was pretty plain that with the breakdown of traditional industries, the decline of union strength and the cleansing of local party and union influence in the Labour Party that the former voice of the (white) working class was now a squeak compared to its former self

 

[kabbes]

Ah, I see. So when you said "the voice of the white working class was what kept Thatcher in power for so many years" you didn't actually mean it. It's hard for me to spot the incredibly intelligent subtleties of your argument if you don't express them

You think that the working classes didn't vote for Thatcher? So in 1983 when the Conservatives won 397 seats to Labour's 209 and in 1987 when the Conservatives won 376 seats to Labour's 229, it was all the middle class's doing, was it?

Don't be ridiculous. Thatcher had incredible support across the country. It was the very fact that she sold her monetarist dream to the working classes that was such a tragedy.

Yes, politics was more polarised in those days. Yes, there was ALSO admirable resistance from the trade unions. But to pretend that Thatcher didn't have widespread support for those who should traditionally have been Labour supporters is to miss the lessons of history.

All rather vague. Some reference to voting, polls etc might enlighten us.

Well, it isn't hard to find the results of the elections.

 

[kabbes]

Maybe he was just trying to create a debate, instead of everyone agreeing at this outrageous article

Thank you for understanding

 

[zenie]

Well, there's a danger in trying to 'create debate' by putting forward a one sided argument that looks like it's driven by prejudice.

And is the article outrageous? I'd have thought it was pretty plain that with the breakdown of traditional industries, the decline of union strength and the cleansing of local party and union influence in the Labour Party that the former voice of the (white) working class was now a squeak compared to its former self

There's also a danger in people just nodding, and patting each other on the back, congratulating each other for being so liberal and working class.

You think the WC have had a voice previously then?

 

[Spion]

You think that the working classes didn't vote for Thatcher? So in 1983 when the Conservatives won 397 seats to Labour's 209 and in 1987 when the Conservatives won 376 seats to Labour's 229, it was all the middle class's doing, was it?

Don't be ridiculous. Thatcher had incredible support across the country. It was the very fact that she sold her monetarist dream to the working classes that was such a tragedy.

Yes, politics was more polarised in those days. Yes, there was ALSO admirable resistance from the trade unions. But to pretend that Thatcher didn't have widespread support for those who should traditionally have been Labour supporters is to miss the lessons of history.

Well, it isn't hard to find the results of the elections.

That's better. Far more nuanced than "the voice of the white working class was what kept Thatcher in power for so many years"

 

[Belushi]

Don't be ridiculous. Thatcher had incredible support across the country. It was the very fact that she sold her monetarist dream to the working classes that was such a tragedy.

No she didnt, she had strong support in certain parts of the country. She certainly didnt have any support whatsoever in many working class strongholds.

 

[editor]

Y
Don't be ridiculous. Thatcher had incredible support across the country.

Not in Wales she didn't, and she was an absolute minority in the working class stronghold of the south Wales valleys.

 

[Spion]

You think the WC have had a voice previously then?

I think it had more of a voice, albeit one that was distorted by the Labour and trade union bureacracies. They didn't used to talk of beer and sandwiches at No 10 for nothing, y'know

Do you remember any of that, btw?

it was also the case that w/c communities, as such, were more visible and that may have given an impression of mattering more, of an identity, of knowing you weren't just one atom in society.

There's also a danger in people just nodding, and patting each other on the back, congratulating each other for being so liberal and working class.

I've no idea what you're on about here. It just sounds like some kind of 'sheeple' accusation

 

[Belushi]

Not in Wales she didn't, and she was an absolute minority in the working class stronghold of the south Wales valleys.

I never knowingly met a real, living breathing Tory until I was in my teens.

 

[mango5]

*Waits to see who'll go first in the 'I'm more working class than you' game! *

*raises hand*

 

[kabbes]

Yes, OK, there were pockets of the country where Thatcher had no support. "Across the country" doesn't mean "in every single area without exception." It is a touch of hyperbole. Labour still won 209 seats in 1983, so they must have come from somewhere. But no political party wins 397 seats without being incredibly popular in all broad segments of society.

And isn't that the point? What the hell does "the voice of the white working class" mean where The Thatch was a hero to some bits of it and anathema to other bits?

 

[zenie]

I think it had more of a voice, albeit one that was distorted by the Labour and trade union bureacracies. They didn't used to talk of beer and sandwiches at No 10 for nothing, y'know

Do you remember any of that, btw?

it was also the case that w/c communities, as such, were more visible and that may have given an impression of mattering more, of an identity, of knowing you weren't just one atom in society.

And what decade was this? I'm a child of the 80's....

I've no idea what you're on about here. It just sounds like some kind of 'sheeple' accusation

LOL @ sheeple accusation. You being defensive kind of proves my point

*raises hand*

I knew you'd be the first

 

[Roxy641]

Hi Kabbes,

you would be hard pressed to find any political party that got 50% or more of the population, something that hasn't been done for about 50 years or so (if I remember rightly). You seem to be just looking at how many seats they won, if you add up all those that voted for other parties or didn't vote for any of them it goes into millions.

I would argue that most working class DIDN'T vote for Thatcher, but of course I can't claim that no one that saw themselves as working class did. Again, problems with the term working class, someone could be what most of us define as working class yet they might claim to be middle class.

Roxy641

You think that the working classes didn't vote for Thatcher? So in 1983 when the Conservatives won 397 seats to Labour's 209 and in 1987 when the Conservatives won 376 seats to Labour's 229, it was all the middle class's doing, was it?

Don't be ridiculous. Thatcher had incredible support across the country. It was the very fact that she sold her monetarist dream to the working classes that was such a tragedy.

Yes, politics was more polarised in those days. Yes, there was ALSO admirable resistance from the trade unions. But to pretend that Thatcher didn't have widespread support for those who should traditionally have been Labour supporters is to miss the lessons of history.

Well, it isn't hard to find the results of the elections.

 

[Spion]

And isn't that the point? What the hell does "the voice of the white working class" mean where The Thatch was a hero to some bits of it and anathema to other bits?

The white working class existed before Thatcher, and even where some supported her they were likely to still possibly be in traditional jobs and communities, in unions etc, so often benefitting from the things that gave them or appeared to give them their 'voice' while simulatanously having them eroded by the PM they supported. Turkeys voting for Xmas was a common phrase back then

 

[Spion]

And what decade was this? I'm a child of the 80's....

I guessed you were. Things had changed a lot by the time you were conscious

LOL @ sheeple accusation. You being defensive kind of proves my point

I'm not being defensive. I simply didn't understand what you were on about. Still don't

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Older readers will recall there used to be a large organisation that represented the working class, called "The Labour Party"

I dont think "white" should come into it. W/C folk of all ethnicities have been shat on for eons. At least people have the benefit of knowing that from the info that is out there. It is down to people to stand up for themselves and stop whinging about ethnicity. If blacks and asians have good community networks, then good for them. It s not a reason to get all bitter and whingy about immigration. There are issues with migration and infrustructure etc. for sure, but to mix them with ethnicity is a dodgy road.

Anyway, I dont suppose these moaners have any solidarity with the working class people that make their clothes and consumer durables in far-east sweatshops. The whiff of hypocricy is in and amongst these findings.

Any negative plight of the W/C is the work of the capitalist elite. They will be very happy the BBC is pumping out this "divide and rule" stuff.

 

[zenie]

So why are so many working class tories?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

So why are so many working class tories?

because they aspire to be middle class? so rather than display solidarity with their peers, they want to leave them behind and get ahead?

 

[Spion]

because they aspire to be middle class? so rather than display solidarity with their peers, they want to leave them behind and get ahead?

although with today's Labour Party the choice is, well, pretty negligible, tbh

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

although with today's Labour Party the choice is, well, pretty negligible, tbh

Well that's the thing, Labour are the real guilty folk in this story.

Then, if fascism gains a foothold in a ward the Labour can go round saying "you have to vote for us or the nazis will get in". The nazis who wouldnt have stood a chance without Labours betrayal.

 

[bluestreak]

So why are so many working class tories?

My fathers side of the family are mostly working class tories. They talk about protecting Britain from the immigrants (although between them they've married at least five immigrants, so I assume they mean the non-white ones). I'm not very close to them, but much of it seems to be dominated by racism, a dissatisfaction with the cost of housing (although some of them made a lot of money by buying their council property in the 80s but still blame socialists and liberals for not building more), the cost of living, especially taxation, and the poor quality of the NHS. Not sure why they believe the tories will improve this. But nevertheless there is a belief that the Tories will shake up the country, put some backbone into the people, get rid of all the dole dossers and scroungers who fleece their taxes, and throw out all the immigrants who clog up the NHS and housing.

To be honest, if my Dad's side of the family are representative of all white working class Tories, their argument is shit.

 

[Spion]

there is a belief that the Tories will shake up the country, put some backbone into the people, get rid of all the dole dossers and scroungers who fleece their taxes, and throw out all the immigrants who clog up the NHS and housing.

Yeah, I recognise this sentiment, but I reckon it's mostly newspaper bluster and the Tories will do little different from New Labour if they get in, except cut taxes and spending - in which case all the services (NHS, immigration control, prisons) the Mail etc whinge about now will be in a worse state. It'll be interesting to see how the papers behave if that happens.

Personally, I think I'd like to see the unions and labour in opposition again. Might take the deadweight of 'not rocking the boat' off. Well, it might

 

[bluestreak]

because they aspire to be middle class?

some maybe, but many wouldn't even think of it in those terms i don't think.

when my dad voted Tory in the 80s, he did it because (he says) Thatcher was protecting their economic interests. They had a mortgage to pay, and they saw Thatch as being the person to keep it cheap. After all, they had kids to bring up. He never would have described himself as a member of the aspirant middle classes. He just wanted a little house for him and his kids, a bit of garden, something to work towards and provide his family with some security. He never would have considered bringing his kids up on a council estate as solidarity, he'd see it as uneccessary. I doubt he would even know how to answer if you asked him what class he was.

Class consciousness was pretty rare where I grew up.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

although with today's Labour Party the choice is, well, pretty negligible, tbh

in essence yes i agree, however, i think Nu-Lab still have some kind of inferiority complex regards the tories, hence this continual need to be seen to be outflanking them, rather than pointing out some of their more progressive policies (there are some, honest, eg NMW intro, targetting child poverty, etc altho i also accept that as time moves on, they've become more slippery and less driven on these areas as well).

 

[nino_savatte]

We don't have classes any more, we have clusters. You're an aspirational cocooner.

Surely you mean demographic.