Bringing up children as vegans: "unethical and harming"

[tobyjug]

The meal i just ate was a good example of an almost vegan meal. Home made lentil soup with some wholemeal bread. The soup was ok but they usually put milk into bread.

Are lentils on an agricultural scale able to be grown in Britain?

 

[Yossarian]

Where does this evidence come form that says children need cows milk? Why would we have evolved to need the milk of another species to exist? Fucking scaremongering propoganda.

It certainly doesn't come from East Asia, where 90% of the population is lactose intolerant...

 

[Major Tom]

I wonder if our resident 'I forced my children to be vegan' types are going to reply to this thread.

I'd prefer that to the I forced my children to eat meat brigade.

Friends of mine brought their child up as a vegan from birth, with a hostile doctor and family, they now have an unusually healthy well balanced happy kid - and even the doctor has now been converted to the vegan cause.

If it is done properly - then it is the healthiest option.

If when the child is old enough and doesn;t want to be a vegan then s/he can do what s/he likes.

We all have to make choices for our children, why is this any different?

 

[longdog]

Are lentils on an agricultural scale able to be grown in Britain?

Are lima (baked) beans?

 

[Epona]

Where does this evidence come form that says children need cows milk? Why would we have evolved to need the milk of another species to exist? Fucking scaremongering propoganda.

Exactly, it's a ridiculous proposition!

Cows milk is high in fat and difficult for the body to metabolise, because adult human beings do not produce enough of the enzymes needed to break down rich calf-food.

The idea that the only source of calcium is through dairy products is insane - nuts, seeds, and leafy green veg are all rich in calcium. Soya milk also contains calcium.

The idea that somehow a substance designed to sustain calves is a necessary part of a young humans diet is bonkers - think about what you're saying here!

 

[tobyjug]

Are lima (baked) beans?

Baked beans can now be grown in Britain, (This is a fairly recent development saving £80 million in imports)

 

[Major Tom]

The idea that somehow a substance designed to sustain calves is a necessary part of a young humans diet is bonkers - think about what you're saying here!

How can you say that - it is full of lovely growth hormones.

 

[aqua]

If it is done properly - then it is the healthiest option.

but that applies to any diet surely?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think the whole vegan/veggie/carnivore argument is misiing the point somewhat, as any of those diets can be good or bad, it all comes down to a knowledge of what consitutes a good balanced diet.

Nowt but lentils and tofu burgers = bad
Good balanced vegan diet like the examples in this thread = good

McDonalds and Findus frozen based meat diet = bad
Healthy mix of everything, including good quality fresh meat and milk = good



Sod the labels, nothing is inherantly good or bad, it all comes down to a little bit of education and thus getting a good balance.

 

[_pH_]

Baked beans can now be grown in Britain, (This is a fairly recent development saving £80 million in imports)

Source?

 

[Major Tom]

but that applies to any diet surely?

No.

 

[_pH_]

Sod the labels, nothing is inherantly good or bad, it all comes down to a little bit of education and thus getting a good balance.

Exactly.

 

[ill-informed]

all the veggie/vegan kids i know are healthier than usual.

and once they can think for themselves and choose to buy a burger then they should be free to do so, hopefully they'll choose not to but at a certain age, maybe 8, they should be free do experiment. and I think it's important for the parents not to lay any guilt on them.

 

[_pH_]

Are lentils on an agricultural scale able to be grown in Britain?

Are crops grown on an industrial agricultural scale in Britain inherently better for the environment??

 

[BenW]

Really? The statement from Prof Allen is quite definitive:

"There have been sufficient studies clearly showing that when women avoid all animal foods, their babies are born small, they grow very slowly and they are developmentally retarded, possibly permanently."

Bullshit propaganda.

If this is true, then why not cite those reports/studies? What do they have to hide?

 

[ddraig]

also, have you noticed that prog "you are what you eat?" almost always advocates a vegan diet which sorts the slobs right out. losing weight and looking and feeling much more healthy by their own admission.

 

[longdog]

Baked beans can now be grown in Britain, (This is a fairly recent development saving £80 million in imports)

Really? That I didn't know.

 

[_pH_]

Really? That I didn't know.

I'm waiting for Tobes to come back with a source on that one

 

[Japey]

Where does this evidence come form that says children need cows milk? Why would we have evolved to need the milk of another species to exist? Fucking scaremongering propoganda.

We've evolved to be able to adapt to virtually any diet our environment compels us into adpoting. However, thousands of years ago, our ancestors discovered that adopting dairy products as part of our diet proved a very effective way to stay healthy.

They were so convinced of this, that they invested significant resources into herding cattle, when they could have been foraging for soya beans. Clearly, the strategy paid off, otherwise the practise would have died out due to being a hopelessly ineffectual use of human energy.

Some societies in Africa base their entire diet around cow milk (supplementing it with milk of goats and camels, along with small amounts of vegetable matter when they can get hold of it).

A major practical benefit of milk is that an animal can be made to produce it all year around - unlike meat which is only available once from an animal; or vegetables, which are often seasonal. It's therefore very easy to see that it makes perfect evolutionary sense to drink milk - particularly in winter months when other food sources are scarce.

If we are thinking about our ecological footprint, we need to consider the major problems with international trade. It makes no sense flying food half way around the world, or expending vast amounts of energy on refrigeration, just to quench our guilt about eating meat. We should be looking to source all our food as locally as possible. This might mean a combination of seasonal vegetables, and local cheeses and meats. e.g. sheep make use of land which is completely unsuited to crop-growing. And pigs are an excellent 'food store' for excess vegetable protein which would otherwise rot.

This is the ideal, which is currently difficult to live up to. So I very rarely eat meat. I can't stand the sanctimonious attitude of vegans who depend on former rainforest produced food for most of their diets.

 

[Jelly]

Isn't that the whole point?

No, not at all, the point is: What is the natural diet for a young child?

This is very interesting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/869696.stm

So what is going on?

Animals that have less meat in their diets raise more girls?
It is a scientific point that when life is easy and food is plentiful the balance of boys to girls is roughly equal. When life gets hard the ratio of boys to girls falls because it takes more effort, energy and resources to raise healthy male children.

 

[aqua]

No.

I disagree, its about education, no one way is better than another (meat eating, vegan, veggie whatever), if done correctly

if done badly then they can be truely detrimental

 

[tarannau]

It's perfectly possible for Vegan children to be brought up in a perfectly healthy fashion, but it is considerably more difficult and takes far more planning. Menus such as Gaijingirl's earlier in this thread would provide well balanced options, albeit at considerable expense of time and money. Depressingly however, a couple of small spoonfuls of meat would almost certainly match or exceed Gaijin's menu in terms of high quality protein absorbed from the meals.

My real experience of Vegetarian/vegan diets was through sport (rugby) where I'd watch with a certain amount of respect the steps the team's vegetarians would go to replace meat in their diet. It is undoubtedly easier to gain protein especially - useful for bulking up and bruise resistance/recovery for both contact sports and for boisterous children - through meat. It must be doubly difficult to be a vegan in the same circumstances - how many nuts, greens and sprouted seeds would you have to eat to compensate.

It's far from impossible, but parents of a vegan child are going to have to work very hard to ensure well balanced diets for growing frames. I get this feeling this alarmist piece is assuming that most parents won't be as dedicated or educated and is working from a safety-first worst case scenario. After all, this report is from a nation that is increasingly lazy with cooking, with most of its youth grazing and comfort eating itself into uncontrolled obesity. It's a bit of a stretch for someone to recommend such a difficult dietary choice with those circumstances in mind, even if the vegan choice is almost certainly better that the fast/convenience-food nastiness inflicted on many children by less dedicated parents.

 

[Jelly]

also, have you noticed that prog "you are what you eat?" almost always advocates a vegan diet which sorts the slobs right out. losing weight and looking and feeling much more healthy by their own admission.

Unfortunately all studies that compare vegie/meat diets always use a meat eater who eats ten tons of steak a week, eats processed crap and McShit burgers etc. It's no wonder that all comparisons result in the conclusion that veggie diets are better for you.

OF COURSE a veggie diet is better than most meat-eater's diets.
BUT that is not to say that eating meat is an unhealthy, or less healthy, occupation.

 

[Major Tom]

I disagree, its about education, no one way is better than another (meat eating, vegan, veggie whatever), if done correctly

if done badly then they can be truely detrimental

I disagree from personal experience.

 

[_pH_]

We've evolved to be able to adapt to virtually any diet our environment compels us into adpoting. However, thousands of years ago, our ancestors discovered that adopting dairy products as part of our diet proved a very effective way to stay healthy.

They were so convinced of this, that they invested significant resources into herding cattle, when they could have been foraging for soya beans. Clearly, the strategy paid off, otherwise the practise would have died out due to being a hopelessly ineffectual use of human energy.

Some societies in Africa base their entire diet around cow milk (supplementing it with milk of goats and camels, along with small amounts of vegetable matter when they can get hold of it).

A major practical benefit of milk is that an animal can be made to produce it all year around - unlike meat which is only available once from an animal; or vegetables, which are often seasonal. It's therefore very easy to see that it makes perfect evolutionary sense to drink milk - particularly in winter months when other food sources are scarce.

If we are thinking about our ecological footprint, we need to consider the major problems with international trade. It makes no sense flying food half way around the world, or expending vast amounts of energy on refrigeration, just to quench our guilt about eating meat. We should be looking to source all our food as locally as possible. This might mean a combination of seasonal vegetables, and local cheeses and meats. e.g. sheep make use of land which is completely unsuited to crop-growing. And pigs are an excellent 'food store' for excess vegetable protein which would otherwise rot.

This is the ideal, which is currently difficult to live up to. So I very rarely eat meat. I can't stand the sanctimonious attitude of vegans who depend on former rainforest produced food for most of their diets.

How is 'what we did thousands of years ago' relevant to today?

You're right that an animal can be made to produce milk year round - thanks heavens for artificial insemination!!!!

I do agree with your comments re ecological footprints though and food miles. But why assume that locally produced food has a negligible environmental impact? Where I live, 'locally produced' means intensive agriculture with very little regard for the environment - and this is the area that I have little doubt produces the 'English' grown carrots and parsnips that people buy in supermarkets and think they're doing something positive for the environment.

 

[madzone]

We've evolved to be able to adapt to virtually any diet our environment compels us into adpoting. However, thousands of years ago, our ancestors discovered that adopting dairy products as part of our diet proved a very effective way to stay healthy.

They were so convinced of this, that they invested significant resources into herding cattle, when they could have been foraging for soya beans. Clearly, the strategy paid off, otherwise the practise would have died out due to being a hopelessly ineffectual use of human energy.

Some societies in Africa base their entire diet around cow milk (supplementing it with milk of goats and camels, along with small amounts of vegetable matter when they can get hold of it).

A major practical benefit of milk is that an animal can be made to produce it all year around - unlike meat which is only available once from an animal; or vegetables, which are often seasonal. It's therefore very easy to see that it makes perfect evolutionary sense to drink milk - particularly in winter months when other food sources are scarce.

If we are thinking about our ecological footprint, we need to consider the major problems with international trade. It makes no sense flying food half way around the world, or expending vast amounts of energy on refrigeration, just to quench our guilt about eating meat. We should be looking to source all our food as locally as possible. This might mean a combination of seasonal vegetables, and local cheeses and meats. e.g. sheep make use of land which is completely unsuited to crop-growing. And pigs are an excellent 'food store' for excess vegetable protein which would otherwise rot.

This is the ideal, which is currently difficult to live up to. So I very rarely eat meat. I can't stand the sanctimonious attitude of vegans who depend on former rainforest produced food for most of their diets.

But none of that says children need milk. It's convenient that's all. And it's virtually impossible to produce ethically. You have to separate cow and calf to ensure that enough is left for human consumption. The calf gets fed by other means.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Up to the child IMO.

Not when you have some militant, sandal wearing twat standing over you insisting that you must eat rabbit shit and cabbagade instead of burgers and shakes. I think that if anyone declares that they are in any way vegetarian, they should not be allowed to have children.

 

[_pH_]

Not when you have some militant, sandal wearing twat standing over you insisting that you must eat rabbit shit and cabbagade instead of burgers and shakes. I think that if anyone declares that they are in any way vegetarian, they should not be allowed to have children.

Much better to have some militant non-sandal wearing twat standing over you instead?

 

[Jelly]

Not when you have some militant, sandal wearing twat standing over you insisting that you must eat rabbit shit and cabbagade instead of burgers and shakes. I think that if anyone declares that they are in any way vegetarian, they should not be allowed to have children.

Anyone fancy a mayonnaise sandwich?

 

[Major Tom]

Not when you have some militant, sandal wearing twat standing over you insisting that you must eat rabbit shit and cabbagade instead of burgers and shakes. I think that if anyone declares that they are in any way vegetarian, they should not be allowed to have children.

Who's the intolerent militant twat now then?