Bringing up children as vegans: "unethical and harming"

[ill-informed]

what i discovered when i decided to become veggie and then later vegan, was that the british diet isn't geared up for it and you have to understand food better and think about your weekly diet. In places like taiwan it was a doddle as they hardly use dairy products and have a much more diverse cuisine.

 

[easy g]

on the other side of the coin....

I just heard that the some parents of children at the school featured in the new series with Jamie Oliver and his attempt to positively change the food served at school were so outraged at what was happening that they resorted passing burgers through the school fences/gates, wanting the school to go back to serving 'proper food'

I don't know about the whys and wherefores of young children and a vegan diet but I would be very suspicious of someone working for the US Agricultural Research Service.

As for calcium...green leafy vegetables such as spinach or broccoli are superb sources of calcium, and a vegan diet can be superbly healthy....

 

[Cakes]

Not insane, calcium which is in dairy products cannot just be ignored.

I think there is actually more calcium in soya milk than cow's milk. There certainly is in the brand I drink anyway.

 

[tobyjug]

Actually apparently dogs can be brought up veggie/vegan but it's not such a good idea with cats

Highly personal opinion. Anyone imposing their own moral stance about food on their dog needs hanging up from the nearest lampost by the more tender parts of their anatomy.

 

[porshiebo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

I have to say I agree with the claims. Surely keeping a child on a vegan diet isn't in their best interests? Surely you can give them as balanced a diet as possible when they're growing up and give them the chance to become vegans once they reached certain age- say 14 or so?

they'll probably have a much more balanced and healthy diet than 90% of the child population

 

[redsquirrel]

But what else were our parents to do? Bring their children up in a way directly inconsistent with their own ethical principles?

It's (a bit) like moaning that socialist parents don't bring their children up as Tories

That analogy is rubbish, how do you bring someone up to be a tory?
And forcing children to eat a vegan diet if they don't want to is crap.

 

[ill-informed]

As for calcium...green leafy vegetables such as spinach or broccoli are superb sources of calcium, and a vegan diet can be superbly healthy....

I've heard that calcium in leafy veg is easier to absorb than milk based calcium. Not sure if that's true or not. But i hardly have any dairy products (i took the decision not to be a complete vegan as it's so bloody difficult in this country) and haven't had a broken bone or anything like that so i'm assuming i'm getting enough from other sources.

 

[Japey]

I think there is actually more calcium in soya milk than cow's milk. There certainly is in the brand I drink anyway.

Mmm. Think of all the tasty goodness of crops planted where there used to be a rainforest.

 

[BenW]

I've heard that calcium in leafy veg is easier to absorb than milk based calcium. Not sure if that's true or not.

Yes it's true, especially after the age of about 12.

 

[BenW]

Mmm. Think of all the tasty goodness of crops planted where there used to be a rainforest.

Takes a lot more forest clearance to 'grow' cows for McDonald's beef burgers than it does to grow soybeans.

 

[_pH_]

Mmm. Think of all the tasty goodness of crops planted where there used to be a rainforest.

And think of all the cattle ranches where there use to be rainforest...

 

[Japey]

Takes a lot more forest clearance to 'grow' cows for McDonald's beef burgers than it does to grow soybeans.

which is why I don't eat them either.

 

[tobyjug]

(i took the decision not to be a complete vegan as it's so bloody difficult in this country) QUOTE]

That is a serious consideration, it is near impossible to be a healthy vegan or vegetarian on entirely British produced products. (Given I assume that food airmiles are part of any moral food choice stance)

 

[longdog]

Highly personal opinion. Anyone imposing their own moral stance about food on their dog needs hanging up from the nearest lampost by the more tender parts of their anatomy.

Bollocks.

Canned dog food has very little meat in it anyway and dogs are not really that fussed what they eat in my experience. They want quantity not quality. I know my dog will quite happily put away a large bowl full of vegetables and brown bread and that will do him for the day (his farts don't smell half as bad either). It has everything he needs in it when you take into account the number of Spiller's Shapes he scoffs his way through a day.

At this very moment he is crunching his way through a big healthy carrot.

 

[longdog]

That is a serious consideration, it is near impossible to be a healthy vegan or vegetarian on entirely British produced products. (Given I assume that food airmiles are part of any moral food choice stance)

You have a valid point there but the same applies to the vast majority of meat eaters as well. It's not really an argument against veganism or vegetarianism.


Edited to add....

When you think about it. Huge quantities of soy beans are imported as animal feed and it's at least arguable that on that basis meat eaters have a greater 'environmental footprint' by virtue of that alone.

 

[_pH_]

From the BBC article:

Professor Allen said: "There have been sufficient studies clearly showing that when women avoid all animal foods, their babies are born small, they grow very slowly and they are developmentally retarded, possibly permanently."

I'd like Prof Allen to explain then why my children (who were all born while their mother was vegan) were all above average birth weight (8lb 1oz, 10lb 10oz and 8lb), all developed within 'normal' centiles and are all in the top streams at their schools.

 

[Cakes]

Mmm. Think of all the tasty goodness of crops planted where there used to be a rainforest.

Yeah you're right. Back to cow's milk for me then!

 

[Japey]

I'd like Prof Allen to explain then why my children (who were all born while their mother was vegan) were all above average birth weight (8lb 1oz, 10lb 10oz and 8lb), all developed within 'normal' centiles and are all in the top streams at their schools.

bell-curve is the obvious answer.

 

[gaijingirl]

Highly personal opinion. Anyone imposing their own moral stance about food on their dog needs hanging up from the nearest lampost by the more tender parts of their anatomy.

Whether or not the two animals can be fed a vegan diet (answered in my original post) ..is not an opinion it's a matter of fact.

Whether or not you would actually want to do so is an opinion.

If you read the links I originally posted you will see the difference between dogs (omnivores) and cats (obligate carnivores) and how this affects what they can/can't survive on.

By domesticating animals we are already imposing all kinds of conditions on them that would not otherwise be natural. This is why many vegans are against such interference with the animal kingdom at all!

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Believe it or not, there is calcium in spinach too, not to mention other vegetables. Milk is not essential for calcium.

I drink very little milk becuase it doesnt agree with me and I cant stomach any of the 'alternatives' including soya and rice milks which taste like shite.
I manage to get enough calcium by eating greens.

 

[madzone]

Where does this evidence come form that says children need cows milk? Why would we have evolved to need the milk of another species to exist? Fucking scaremongering propoganda.

 

[longdog]

Mmm. Think of all the tasty goodness of crops planted where there used to be a rainforest.

And how much of that is grown for animal feed?

 

[Jelly]

Well, just to add my twopenneth and, no doubt, risk the ire of the vegan/veggie camp.

I was veggie (mostly vegan) for over a decade in my late teens and twenties - i'd consider myself fairly knowledgeable about nutrition, additives etc.

When my first child was born i was forced into an ethical dilema of forcing my beliefs onto a baby. Contrary to what most veggies/vegans think it is a vegan diet that is unnatural for the human body. We are evolved omnivores. Our natural state is eat anything edible we can get our hands on. There's some scientific evidence to indicate that the accelerated brain development our ancestors achieved when they got out of the trees and onto the savannas was that they learned how to cook meat.

We have canine teeth.
We have (an albeit redundant) appendix (arguably used by our ancestors to digest very tough material like bark, cellulose and raw meat.)

You can argue that it is another important evolutionary step for us to give up animal derived foodstuffs but, right now, what is unnatural? Inducting a child to a vegan diet or to an omnivorous diet?

Please let's not get into the cuddly animals/respect-all-life debate cos that's a moralistic human construct.

And bollox to the US Agricultural Research Service, they go where the money tells them to go - like all state and undustry-funded scientific research

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I wonder how ethtical it would be though to try to force a child not to eat animal products if they chose to later on.

I know several vegans , I was veggie for 7 years. Unfortunately though the vegans I know are totally anti meat, anti animal produce of any sort( which naturally guides their choice of lifestyle and diet) and I wonder how far they would go to control their childrens diets which may wind up with them and the child falling out big style if they disobeyed the parent. that worries me

 

[tobyjug]

And bollox to the US Agricultural Research Service, they go where the money tells them to go - like all state and undustry-funded scientific research

I agree, I have just one comment about them:- Monsanto

 

[longdog]

Please let's not get into the cuddly animals/respect-all-life debate cos that's a moralistic human construct.

Isn't that the whole point?

 

[gaijingirl]

(i took the decision not to be a complete vegan as it's so bloody difficult in this country) QUOTE]

That is a serious consideration, it is near impossible to be a healthy vegan or vegetarian on entirely British produced products. (Given I assume that food airmiles are part of any moral food choice stance)

WHAT?? Firstly every effort can be made to reduce air miles... plenty of companies do have an ethical policy on this.. ie Abel & Cole:

"We have a policy that, when produce has to come in from abroad, it is only imported by ship. We never airfreight because it generates approximately thirty times more carbon dioxide than sea freight. "

And secondly, whilst it is certainly something to be considered... I'm not going to take the viewpoint that if I can't be 100% ethically correct in every way..then I might as well not bother. It's so often non-vegans/veggies who seem to come out with "oh but you wear leather shoes/oh but think of the airmiles etc etc..."... we each do the best we can within our limitations whether they be financial/geographical or whatever...

 

[ill-informed]

(i took the decision not to be a complete vegan as it's so bloody difficult in this country) QUOTE]

That is a serious consideration, it is near impossible to be a healthy vegan or vegetarian on entirely British produced products. (Given I assume that food airmiles are part of any moral food choice stance)

The meal i just ate was a good example of an almost vegan meal. Home made lentil soup with some wholemeal bread. The soup was ok but they usually put milk into bread.

 

[_pH_]

bell-curve is the obvious answer.

Really? The statement from Prof Allen is quite definitive:

"There have been sufficient studies clearly showing that when women avoid all animal foods, their babies are born small, they grow very slowly and they are developmentally retarded, possibly permanently."

Bullshit propaganda.

 

[longdog]

I wonder how ethtical it would be though to try to force a child not to eat animal products if they chose to later on.

I know several vegans , I was veggie for 7 years. Unfortunately though the vegans I know are totally anti meat, anti animal produce of any sort( which naturally guides their choice of lifestyle and diet) and I wonder how far they would go to control their childrens diets which may wind up with them and the child falling out big style if they disobeyed the parent. that worries me

Errr.... Hang on.

When I was a kid I was effectively forced to eat meat. And if you'd ever tasted my mother's boiled to death mince you'd know what a trial that was