bringing up baby - ch4
- Thread starter killer b
- Start date
LilMissHissyFit said:Do you post on/read parenting forums? The AP brigade( mainly women) on them have to be the most judgemental, rude, inconsiderate bunch ever. You do it THEIR WAY you UNDERSTAND?? or you are a shit mother- its a givenFormula feeders are poisoning their kids, you use a pushchair you are emotionally abusive and so on and so on. Of course they then claim to have produced wonderful amazing indigo children who are sooo much better than everyone elses, more academically able, more creative etc etc
You are only a proper APer if you read/sunscribe to it all, formally.. doing what comes naturally isnt APing according to alot of them
some things can be taken to extremes;-)
AP, as I understand it, seems to have some practices in common with what I guess can be called a CC approach, but the emphasis is much more on the relationship between mother and infant. Both accounts take into account what they describe as evolutionary behaviour but the emphasis in the CC is much more social and group based whereas Bowlby was really influenced by studies of other species in which mother and infant imprinting takes place and stresses continuous attachment. Bowlby’s ideas were very influential at the time and were criticised as part of political moves to encourage working women back into the home. I’ve not read much about AP cos I’m not into this idea of the exclusivity of the mother-infant relationship – I think that’s part of the problem in our society, not one of its solutions. To do it ‘properly’ it seems practicable only by those who have the financial resources to be at home with baby for a long period of time; as was the case with Bowlby upper middle-class life is taken as the norm to which all other lives are compared unfavourably. But the general approach of being responsive to baby’s needs as opposed to taming baby seems to me to be a good one.
One of the points made in the CC was that we had lost confidence in our ability to do what came naturally, partly through the use of manuals and rules, which in part stems from our modern lack of experience of baby and child care before we have our own. This is a very recent development in human history and obviously leads to women seeking advice from elsewhere. And, of course, the social engineering that takes place in modern society is far greater than that practiced in the Amazon – running empires and advanced capitalist economies means that how the next generation is raised takes on huge political importance. This means doing what comes 'naturally' is actually quite complicated, but the point in the CC was that we need to re-claim our innate knowledge of how to be with babies as opposed to following the prescriptions of male doctors, as it was back in 1970.
Idaho
continuity character
The only problem I have with that continium concept is that it suggests that the baby must be the centre of your world and that you can deal with it's every anxiety.
IME babies cry for all sorts of reasons, some of them unfathomable and seemingly impossible to comfort. Also parenthood can be really, really draining - especially combined with work and other aspects of life. I see the desire to put the baby to bed in it's own room to sleep at 7pm, not as a cold and hostile act of an uncaring parent, but as a reasonable way to get some time as a couple/adult.
IME babies cry for all sorts of reasons, some of them unfathomable and seemingly impossible to comfort. Also parenthood can be really, really draining - especially combined with work and other aspects of life. I see the desire to put the baby to bed in it's own room to sleep at 7pm, not as a cold and hostile act of an uncaring parent, but as a reasonable way to get some time as a couple/adult.
trashpony
Hag
Idaho said:
Yes, that's certainly true. Although my baby goes to bed at 7pm but in my room.
I agree with you and foo - there's so many theories floating around about the best way to raise a baby but really you need to trust your gut instincts. Claire Verity and her ilk don't take account of the needs of the parent (which are to hold and nurture the child) so I think they can damage them as much as the baby. Interestingly, very few of these hardcore parenting gurus have children.
Tanya Byron has said she's stopping doing telly because she thinks that parents have become afraid to trust their own instincts as there are so many wildly differing approaches out there and it's pretty confusing as a new parent to know which one is best.
Idaho said:
Actually, it doesn't suggest either of those things. Jean Liedloff quite explicitely says that making baby the centre of your world is likely to lead to more anxiety in the child rather than less. It is the fact that the culture she describes is not a child-centered approach that she sees as beneficial. The child is stimulated and learns by witnessing the mother, father, or brother, or sister etc. go about their daily business whilst being held in arms (where their needs for warmth, contact, food, sleep are met). The point is that they get on with life accompanied by baby rather than stopping doing what they normally do and focusing all their attention on baby. The woman on the prog actually described it: baby is in a satellite relationship with the parents, not the other way round.
Idaho said:Hehehe - I'll remind you of that in 6 months time when you've spent the day trying to do the washing up and tidy the flat carrying a bored and wriggling baby
We had twins and a 2 year old - how would that fit in to the CC approach
I've already said that the CC was a description of 'traditional life' for want of a better phrase; I don’t think of it as some sort of child-care rule book for modern life, so I have no answers for you. I'm under no illusions about the social differences between our society and that of an amazonian tribe.
I think that women stuck at home on their own doing domestic chores is as unstimulating for baby as it is for the mother - of course baby will be bored. My day is not usually spent doing the washing up and tidying the flat - I participate in the life of my society by going to work like most people. Spending the day at home is a necessity brought about by our separation of work from all other aspects of our life - its an interruption to normal life not a continuation of it.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
trashpony said:
This of course assumes that "gut instincts" exist in isolation, free from any influence from the way you yourself were parented, what your family said about parenting, what books you may have read, TV programmes you may have watched etc...which seems rather unlikely to me.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Red Cat said:
I completely agree.. sadly some of the followers of these parenting approaches follow them so religiously( and yes like an evangelical mob) that they lose sight of what was intended to start with...
Parenting... its the new religion
When i had mine there was none of that nonsense, you just got the hell on with it.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
RAAAAAAAAAARRRRR 
at that horrible maternity nurse, it's pretty obvious that HER mum never picked her up when she cried or gave her a smile and a chat, because look how she's turned out - absolutely no empathy whatsoever. Those poor babies. How can anyone deny a newborn a cuddle? What if they do a poo in the 3 hours they're outside in the garden with the door closed, are you meant to just leave them lying in it? What if they have the damned audacity to get hungry or thirsty before their allotted 4 hours is up? And if anyone had told Mr weepiper he wasn't allowed to kiss his new baby, or had told my eldest she wasn't allowed to cuddle my youngest, I'd have thrown them out on their ear.
I didn't like the tone in which the three theories were presented as 'everyone did this in this era', my nan had new babies in the 40's and although she probably did put them outside in their prams for some of the day, I'm damned sure she didn't leave them to scream their poor little lungs out at 2 days old, or refuse to give eye contact while feeding, or limit them to 10 minutes of cuddles a day!! Equally I and my brothers were born in the 70's and yes my mum breastfed all of us and we slept in parents' bed on and off as babies, but we didn't get carried all day.
I went for the 'make it up as you go along but with lots of love' approach, eldest was going to be breastfed but ended up bottlefed, slept in our bed til she was 4 months but went into a cot happily enough, was carried in a sling or on my hip in order to get housework done without her crying and being miserable because I'd put her down, but did go in a pushchair if we were going shopping and I needed to carry stuff. Youngest more or less the same but he was breastfed, and he slept in with us for a bit longer, but still went in a cot with no problem by the time he was about 9-10 months. And he was probably put down a bit more often during the day because I wanted to give eldest some time to herself.
at that horrible maternity nurse, it's pretty obvious that HER mum never picked her up when she cried or gave her a smile and a chat, because look how she's turned out - absolutely no empathy whatsoever. Those poor babies. How can anyone deny a newborn a cuddle? What if they do a poo in the 3 hours they're outside in the garden with the door closed, are you meant to just leave them lying in it? What if they have the damned audacity to get hungry or thirsty before their allotted 4 hours is up? And if anyone had told Mr weepiper he wasn't allowed to kiss his new baby, or had told my eldest she wasn't allowed to cuddle my youngest, I'd have thrown them out on their ear.I didn't like the tone in which the three theories were presented as 'everyone did this in this era', my nan had new babies in the 40's and although she probably did put them outside in their prams for some of the day, I'm damned sure she didn't leave them to scream their poor little lungs out at 2 days old, or refuse to give eye contact while feeding, or limit them to 10 minutes of cuddles a day!! Equally I and my brothers were born in the 70's and yes my mum breastfed all of us and we slept in parents' bed on and off as babies, but we didn't get carried all day.
I went for the 'make it up as you go along but with lots of love' approach, eldest was going to be breastfed but ended up bottlefed, slept in our bed til she was 4 months but went into a cot happily enough, was carried in a sling or on my hip in order to get housework done without her crying and being miserable because I'd put her down, but did go in a pushchair if we were going shopping and I needed to carry stuff. Youngest more or less the same but he was breastfed, and he slept in with us for a bit longer, but still went in a cot with no problem by the time he was about 9-10 months. And he was probably put down a bit more often during the day because I wanted to give eldest some time to herself.
killer b said:i've been doing the washing up & cooking with martha in a sling. she seems to like it... everything takes twice as long mind.
i'm glad she likes it
Was cooking earlier on wondering how baby wouldn't get in my way, but apparently they don't. I'll find out soon enough. Hopefully.
LilMissHissyFit said:
If we think about the context of an increasingly competitive society in which many women now gain much of their sense of identity from achievements in education and work, coupled with both the idealisation and denigration of motherhood, its not surprising that many want to compete and feel in control in the area of parenting too. Motherhood is not well supported in our society; women are suddenly in their homes isolated from their previous life and expected to just get on with it. I think wanting to stick to a parenting style is a way of dealing with the anxiety of the unknown of being a parent. IMO its preferable to allow things to unfold and for parent and baby to get to know each-other and what works for them, but its understandable that parents want rules.
Also, how we bring up our children is a massive political issue: parenting brings up questions about what kind of society we want to live in, which inevitably brings up questions of power – in whose interests is a particular parenting style? So, of course its going to get people committed to one way or another in a way that pisses other people off.
LilMissHissyFit said:Parenting... its the new religion
Well, its also big business. Mums are now more financially independent than they were previously, with disposable income – they constitute a huge market. Sell the idea of perfectionism, for them and their children, make mums feel inadequate, and sell them the solution.
LilMissHissyFit said:
Really? There have been parenting manuals around for a long time, there were plenty around in Victorian times, and governmental agencies have been involved in encouraging certain kinds of child-rearing practices since the mid 20th century. I’m not sure that there’s anything new about this except as a matter of degree. My mum would say that she just got the hell on with it but its pretty clear that she was really influenced by her own upbringing and theories that said that babies should be tamed even if she didn’t read books on the subject.
Stobart Stopper
Well-Known Member
disabled toilets?killer b said:i had to run home from town the other day 'cause i was desparate for the bog and didn't want to take her in the gents...
what is the 'done thing' for men out and about with their tiny daughters? there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of facilities for us...
radio_atomica
mrs vole the vet
Red Cat said:i'm glad she likes it
Was cooking earlier on wondering how baby wouldn't get in my way, but apparently they don't. I'll find out soon enough. Hopefully.
i've got her in a sling this morning that i've not been able to use before due to the stitches from my c-section still being tender and so far so good... as soon as i got her in she just went to sleep. problems so far are i am too short to use the kitchen sink properly with her in front of me and have to be careful going through narrow spaces - same as when you're preggers really...
radio_atomica
mrs vole the vet
Stobart Stopper said:
all on radar keys though aren't they...
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
killer b said:i had to run home from town the other day 'cause i was desparate for the bog and didn't want to take her in the gents...
what is the 'done thing' for men out and about with their tiny daughters? there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of facilities for us...
often Parent and baby rooms have loo's in them???
scifisam
deleted
Thora said:The Continuum Concept looks the best out of that lot, but some people into attachment parenting are like religious nuttersAnyone who doesn't breastfeed for two years, who's baby ever cries, mothers who ever put their baby down (you can still carry a baby while showering or going to the loo!) are basically child abusers
I've met a few parents like that. But not many. Most parents do just make it up as they go along.
I did actually hold my baby all the time for the first few months, though, even while going to the loo, cooking, eating, showering, everything (showering was easy and was beneficial, in that I didn't have to bathe my daughter too often, because she showered with me). Sometimes it was with the aid of a sling, which took some of the weight off, but not all - I was so thin that no slings came even close to my body!
But that was because she needed to be held that often. That may have been because her birth was really awful and she was in the NICU (and couldn't be held much) or a week, and it may just be the way she is.
In any case, it wasn't my plan. It was just that I found that, if she was put down, she cried, if was held, she didn't. Didn't seem that big a deal, considering that I ended up with a baby who never cried and slept through the night from the day we came back from hospital.
If she'd been happy being away from me earlier, I wouldn't have carried her so much.
At 8 weeks old she was comfortable with being put in a moses basket and later on she was fine with everyone. Come nursery, aged 2, she scampered off without a backwards glance.
According to some theories, that meant that we weren't at all close and she was completely detached from me - she should have cried until I was gone and then settled down, theoretically. But I thought that it was just that she was a sociable, curious thing and knew I'd be back soon. And now that she's older and I know her better, I think it was probably because she's so easily distracted that she probably forgot I wasn't there.
One thing you really shouldn't do is to go into parenting with a definite plan or any ideas set in stone - you're setting yourself up for self-perceived failure. Having some ideas is good, having a general idea of how you'd prefer to proceed is fine, but that's all. People vary so much, even as babies, that there is never any 'right way.'
I really want to see this show now! Think I'll search it out. But at least I'll be watching it online, not paying for it or giving them any viewing figures!
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
Idaho said:Does Jean Liedloff have kids? If not you may as well bin that book now
I believe she does not have children of her own, but that however she is / was the proud owner of a very contented armadillo
.Doesn't stop it being an interesting book, as long it doesn't get treated like a bible...
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Fuck off channel 4.
12 minutes in and so far only a recap and arguments.
12 minutes in and so far only a recap and arguments.
killer b said:i had to run home from town the other day 'cause i was desparate for the bog and didn't want to take her in the gents...
what is the 'done thing' for men out and about with their tiny daughters? there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of facilities for us...
You'll soon learn a map of the local town centre and all the child-friendly bogs, places with easy access disabled loos (supermarkets are great as are department stores).
You can't beat places like primark/mothercare/cafe nero etc as they nearly always have fairly decent fairly clean bogs.
When in doubt, I've just taken madam into women's bogs too, likewise, not wanting to expose her to the filth of a blokes bog and exposed urinals.
I've never ever had any problems, only encouragement actually and overheard comments like "oh I wish my fella would do that! He always expects me to change bubba".
keep it up!
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
I want to hit that woman.... no cuddles
FFS shes ruining the whole bond of mother and child, trying to purge all natural insticts from this child
I seriously worry about that baby
FFS shes ruining the whole bond of mother and child, trying to purge all natural insticts from this child
I seriously worry about that baby
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