bring the routemasters back? the poll

[untethered]

There are 8000 buses in the London Bus fleet. Assuming a wage of 20k, that's £160,000,000/year for a full complement of conductors. Obivously this is a theoretical maximum - not all those buses are in use at one time, and not all routes would neccesarily need a conductor. 10's of millions is the order of magnitude here. Just facts for the thread, m'lud.

Yes, it would cost a lot of money, but we always used to do it. Were we a richer society 30 years ago or just one with its priorities in the right place?

You need to look at the benefit side of the COBA too. Tangibles like increased ridership and fare revenue, less crime, intangibles like reassurance, satisfaction and civility.

Lamp of Sacrifice, Mr Crispy. Don't let the cost deflect you from doing the right thing.

 

[innit]

Yes, it would cost a lot of money, but we always used to do it. Were we a richer society 30 years ago or just one with its priorities in the right place?

You need to look at the benefit side of the COBA too. Tangibles like increased ridership and fare revenue, less crime, intangibles like reassurance, satisfaction and civility.

Lamp of Sacrifice, Mr Crispy. Don't let the cost deflect you from doing the right thing.

Ya think? Or would the conductors just be in a really shit and vulnerable job, taking abuse all day and at risk of being assaulted?

 

[Callie]

What exactly would the job description say?

I said there was no place for conductors on a modern double decker because theres nothing for them to conduct. What exactly would they be doing? waiting for someone to ask for them to move their bag for them??

Im not that baffled tbh, its a lovely lovely idea to have a security/butler on each bus to serve my every need but if you think its realistic then my friend you are in cloud cuckoo land!

 

[untethered]

Ya think? Or would the conductors just be in a really s- and vulnerable job, taking abuse all day and at risk of being assaulted?

If the authority figure on a bus is treated thus, what hope is there for the passengers?

 

[innit]

If the authority figure on a bus is treated thus, what hope is there for the passengers?

It's safer for the public cos we don't have to challenge fare-dodgers, people playing music or graffiti-ing, we can just ignore them. A conducter would have to have a word and might get a pummelling. The teams who check oyster cards travel in packs for a reason.

 

[untethered]

It's safer for the public cos we don't have to challenge fare-dodgers, people playing music or graffiti-ing, we can just ignore them. A conducter would have to have a word and might get a pummelling. The teams who check oyster cards travel in packs for a reason.

It sounds like we need to build an alliance between the well-behaved passengers and the conductor, such that the passengers would be encouraged to assist him in the event of any difficulties.

The parable of the good Samaritan is apt here.

 

[Roadkill]

The parable of the good Samaritan is apt here.

 

[innit]

It's like he's posting through a wormhole from the 1920s

A Salvation Army wormhole.

 

[g force]

Yeah, until you get it wrong and get dragged along the street like I saw happen on oxford street once.

As I've said before, this is not a polarised bendy/routemaster choice. Get rid of the bendies, replace them with regular ddeckers, and ignore the routemaster cos there's no way it's coming back.

^^^^

This. Bendy buses were a bad mistake but to simply scrap them is a ludicrous idea. Routemasters are outdated, the new version means a bespoke bus for one city - economic suicide.

Just use Double Deckers (just not the shite on the 242/8 routes with the ridiculous seating arrangement downstairs).

 

[Callie]

It sounds like we need to build an alliance between the well-behaved passengers and the conductor, such that the passengers would be encouraged to assist him in the event of any difficulties.

The parable of the good Samaritan is apt here.

yeah why not throw some superheroes into the mix wile were at it - we could take on the world!!!

I honestly don't think conductors on buses would stop naughty/disruptive/illegal behaviour on public transport. If you want someone to do that youre gonna be looking at BTP, community support officiers, hmm sercuricor maybe. would you like a bouncer on the bus?

 

[Roadkill]

This. Bendy buses were a bad mistake but to simply scrap them is a ludicrous idea. Routemasters are outdated, the new version means a bespoke bus for one city - economic suicide.

In fairness, a lot of Routemasters carried on doing good service in other cities after they were withdrawn from London. I remember these running in Hull in the early 1990s:

They were popular, and an advantage over conventional buses on the busy city-centre routes. I suppose it's theoretically possible that a consortium of major bus operators could design a 'son of Routemaster' for use on city-centre bus routes nationwide, but I can't see them doing so. The cost would be too high, and anyway, the conductors and the open platform that made the originals popular aren't coming back, so there's precious little point.

 

[Harold Hill]

Anyone would think clippies used to be regularly murdered by feral youths going by some of this thread. And on a cost basis, it's far easier to justify bus conductors than staffing some of the smaller London stations - which people don't seem to object to.

If TFL devloped this in partnership with a manufacturer then surely inital outlay could be recouped by other cities buying them too, here or abroad.

 

[STFC]

Will they have a bar on board? Trolley service?

 

[ovaltina]

It sounds like we need to build an alliance between the well-behaved passengers and the conductor, such that the passengers would be encouraged to assist him in the event of any difficulties.

Post of the day!

 

[salem]

Anyone would think clippies used to be regularly murdered by feral youths going by some of this thread. And on a cost basis, it's far easier to justify bus conductors than staffing some of the smaller London stations - which people don't seem to object to.

If TFL devloped this in partnership with a manufacturer then surely inital outlay could be recouped by other cities buying them too, here or abroad.

Agreed, there are some quite bizarre views on here. The reason people take the piss on bendy buses is because they don't expect to get challenged and 95% of the time they don't. When they do they are likely to kick off. It's setting people up to fail. If they knew they'd be challenged everytime they would be less likely to put themselves in the position in the first place. And what of conductors on the DLR, always seems pretty relaxed on there, despite the conductor not being locked away behind reinforced glass.

I'm not holding my breath for it to happen, but I don't see why the bus would have to be designed entirely from scratch. TFL have a lot of say when it comes to procurement of buses for operation on their routes and if they placed certain demands then the manufacturers will meet them. Not to say it won't come at a cost but it doesn't have to be *that* much.

I also don't remember Boris saying he'd bring conductors back on all buses, that would be mad. However having conductors on some buses; at peak times and in busy or problematic areas is possible and not going to cost the hundreds of millions quoted above.

I get the impression that most urbanites would prefer Boris to fail regardless of the cost to London.

 

[Sunray]

The only reason the Routemaster has nostalgia is because sucessive governments of the day didn't want to commit to replacing the fuckers.

The route masters have NO saving graces. Cold, uncomfortable death traps with no suspension and far too low ceilings. How do people over look all of those things.

Keep the bendy buses, routes are crowed enough without having to lower the number of people on the bus.

 

[ajdown]

Keep the bendy buses, routes are crowed enough without having to lower the number of people on the bus.

Only because they are crammed standing in - which is no solution at all. More buses is what is needed.

What would really help would be to ban cyclists from bus lanes - many a time we crawl up the bus lane at about 10mph behind a pack of pushbikes blocking the road, when we could be otherwise travelling at around 30mph past stationary traffic.

 

[rover07]

Yes bring back conductors, speeds up journey times cos you don't have a queue of people waiting to pay or show their passes to the driver.

How about having a quiet zone on the bottom deck too. I hate listening to someone elses fucking tinny ipod

 

[ajdown]

How about having a quiet zone on the bottom deck too. I hate listening to someone elses fucking tinny ipod

The whole bus is supposed to be 'keep music down and don't play it out loud', but a) kids don't understand this concept, b) the driver can't be arsed to do anything about it even when reported.

So, yes, a conductor (even roaming ones that hop on, stay for a few stops to check things then get off again) would be some kind of deterrent at least.

As I stated in other threads, when people aren't able to regulate their own behaviour to be considerate of others, other people have to do it for them.

 

[Urbanblues]

http://www.capoco.co.uk/capoco-routemaster-study.html

 

[Urbanblues]

Yes bring back conductors, speeds up journey times cos you don't have a queue of people waiting to pay or show their passes to the driver.

How about having a quiet zone on the bottom deck too. I hate listening to someone elses fucking tinny ipod

Couldn't the quiet zone be on the upper deck?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

they are very difficult for disabled passengers, and for people with pushchairs, ll!!

Not only that new(ish) legislation on disability access (2005) would make them illegal by 2009 (as I recall). They may have been phased out a couple of years before they needed to be but that is all.

One of the problems with new routemasters will be that they not only will have to accommodate the disabled but they will also won't have the hop on hop off facility. I don't really see the point.

Designs for new buses have been submitted and looked into for years by TFL and none have proved realistic, practical or even slightly affordable. Not sure what Bojo is going to do here, he will already be wasting all the money (rightly or wrongly) spunkedspunked on bendys and moving all the street furniture to accommodate them. Do we really want to waste even more money on another mayors whim?

 

[citydreams]

It gets worse.

He's likely to conceed to Porsche over the CO2 charge. I doubt that the settlement amount will ever be published online but it has to be several million at least just to cover court costs.

Then it's quite likely he's going to dismantle the western extension to the congestion charge. That's going to cost him several million in consultation costs, maybe a million to remove the cameras and make good, plus about £50 million a year in lost revenue.

Then he's got the hike in diesel prices to account for.

Good job pay settlements don't happen till next April.

Oh, and he still hasn't appointed a transport advisor!!

He's been asked to talk to London Travel Watch next Tuesday, but for some reason he hasn't confirmed his attendance yet

 

[Urbanblues]

One of the problems with new routemasters will be that they not only will have to accommodate the disabled but they will also won't have the hop on hop off facility. I don't really see the point.

Even this one?

 

[Crispy]

Good grief, that capoco one involves a whole bunch of technologies that aren't even mature yet. Large lithium ion batteries, wheel mounted motors, hydrogen engine. AFAIK, none of these technologies are beyond the pilot study stage. We'd be paying for a lot of R&D.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Even this one?

It still has the open back which is not allowed. If you can't have the open back what is the point? I've seen a few with folding doors at the back but that's not really what the routemaster was about.

I expect that the parts would have to be tailor made too, making a brand new type of bus just for one city is not cheap. Then you have to keep producing the spare parts somewhere. Spare parts were beginning to be a big problem for the routemasters, one of the reasons they were phased out a couple of years early.

 

[Urbanblues]

It still has the open back which is not allowed. If you can't have the open back what is the point? I've seen a few with folding doors at the back but that's not really what the routemaster was about.

I expect that the parts would have to be tailor made too, making a brand new type of bus just for one city is not cheap. Then you have to keep producing the spare parts somewhere. Spare parts were beginning to be a big problem for the routemasters, one of the reasons they were phased out a couple of years early.

My post was really pointing to the disability access designed into the bus.

 

[Giles]

back with the conductors again. for the love of god why????

there are no conductors, there will be no conductors there is no place for a conductor on the conventional double deckers.

What's wrong with conductors?

Why could they afford to have them for all those years and yet now everyone says "we can't afford to have bus conductors" as if this is established fact?

Bus fares have not gone down significantly since they got rid of them.

How many people don't pay on a busy bendy-bus? How many would have to pay if you had conductors? How many people don't like taking a driver-only bus full of aggressive kids, or aggressive drunks, who maybe WOULD take a bus if there was someone controlling people's behaviour a bit?

Giles..

 

[Giles]

It's safer for the public cos we don't have to challenge fare-dodgers, people playing music or graffiti-ing, we can just ignore them. A conducter would have to have a word and might get a pummelling. The teams who check oyster cards travel in packs for a reason.

Simple. Arm the conductors. No more tinny phone music or loutish behaviour. Conductor produces his "lawgiver" - miscreant shuts the f*** up.



Giles..

 

[ajdown]

Why do kids get free travel all day anyway?

If the local authorities won't put on school buses, then why is it important for kids to be travelling free at any time of the day? During school travel times (7.30am-9.00am, 3.00pm-4.30pm for example) I can kinda see it, but why all day and all evening when they aren't travelling to/from school?

I don't think those limits are unreasonable. Most of the problems I encounter when travelling on buses are a direct result of teenagers - overcrowding, noise, music out loud - being on them, with nobody to control them.