Bring back BR say the people!

[Doppelgänger]

Posters calling for the reintroduction of BR have either forgotten what BR was really like ar are too young to remember - lousy time keeping, crap food, non existent customer service, filthy trains, nil investment, etc.

And that has changed how?

 

[Doppelgänger]

The issues in Berlin are a direct result of a crazy desire for full privatisation of DB as a rail operator.

The Poles have a crazy idea that they too want to privatise their railways!

Guess whose system they are trying to base it upon.

 

[agricola]

Posters calling for the reintroduction of BR have either forgotten what BR was really like ar are too young to remember - lousy time keeping, crap food, non existent customer service, filthy trains, nil investment, etc.

One might suggest that the last one of your points will have had an impact on the ones before it.

As for BR, I am old enough to remember it and would have it back in a heartbeat if the alternative was Virgin or what was NXEC, as the trains were much more comfortable, much cheaper and had more character.

 

[PacificOcean]

One might suggest that the last one of your points will have had an impact on the ones before it.

As for BR, I am old enough to remember it and would have it back in a heartbeat if the alternative was Virgin or what was NXEC, as the trains were much more comfortable, much cheaper and had more character.

You'd rather London to Manchester on some old bouncy slam door train than a quiet, smooth Pendalino (sp?)

 

[paolo]

You'd rather London to Manchester on some old bouncy slam door train than a quiet, smooth Pendalino (sp?)

The proper Inter City carriages were great.

Not so long back I was going to Liverpool from London. After squeezing myself into the airline seat Pendolino, they cancelled it and sent us over to a replacement Inter City thingy. Spread out with my papers on a proper four-seat with table and a window that aligned with the four seats. No staring at a bulkhead or a seatback. For me, Pendolinos are one step forwards, two steps back.

And it arrived at the same time as the Pendolino was due to.

 

[agricola]

You'd rather London to Manchester on some old bouncy slam door train than a quiet, smooth Pendalino (sp?)

Yes. WSMR use the old (ie: non-airline seating arrangement) Mark 3 carriages and they are much more comfortable than the Pendolino, both in terms of the seats themselves and in terms of legroom.

That said, even that was less comfortable than the standard class Mark 1 compartment coach on the Llangollen railway.

 

[Doppelgänger]

I'm not too bothered about the comfort side. i just want my train to get me to where I want to get to, on time and at a reasonable price.

What anoys me most is that the government subsidy to all the private companies and Notwork Rail etc is more now, than when the whole system was in public owenership.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that one (of many) occasion(s) when Southeastern raised their fares they cited that one of the reasons was becuase they were getting a lower government subsidy! What's that about?

 

[PacificOcean]

The proper Inter City carriages were great.

National Express still use them on the Liverpool Street - Norwich route if you fancy a bit of nostalgia!

 

[teuchter]

I have often thought what a waste. The cost of rebranding must be a large sum each time - repainting trains, changing the interiors, putting up new station signs, rerecording automnated station announcements, giving staff new uniform, printing new letterheads, building new websites, devising a range of names for new tickets etc etc as well as things like giving all transferred staff new contracts etc none of which make the trains run any better

In Scotland they have taken the sensible step of introducing a national branding for the trains which will supposedly stay the same regardless of who is running the franchise at any one time.

Unfortunately it's a bit crap as liveries go, but the basic idea is a good one.

I think that there should be a standard branding all over the UK and the different franchisees should be effectively invisible to the passenger. This should extend to ticketing arrangements as well as cosmetic stuff.

Much the way London buses operate, in fact.

 

[agricola]

I think that there should be a standard branding all over the UK and the different franchisees should be effectively invisible to the passenger. This should extend to ticketing arrangements as well as cosmetic stuff.

Much the way London buses operate, in fact.

A sensible idea. Maroon or blue and grey?

 

[paolo]

Much the way London buses operate, in fact.

As per the London buses, a small logo would be fine. And correct too. You should know who to blame, or appreciate.

 

[teuchter]

As per the London buses, a small logo would be fine. And correct too. You should know who to blame, or appreciate.

Yes, a small logo would be perfectly acceptable.

 

[Meltingpot]

The Tories privatised the railways in the way they did precisely to make it hard to reverse; they dispersed the management and command structures so that it would be impracticable to gather them in again. I've noticed that John MacGregor, the chief Tory architect of privatisation, has been keeping his head down recently - and no doubt with good reason. A lot of people would like to put his head on a pike (at least metaphorically).

My answer to the question posed in the OP is a guarded "yes" as I have mixed memories of the old BR. My best one though is coming home from the Midlands (where I was at university) not long after the then new Intercity 125 engine had been introduced, sweeping along travelling faster than I'd ever travelled before with my legs spread out in the plush Intercity carriage. Great feeling.

The 125 engine was an engineering triumph IMO, showing what good engineers could do with limited resources and funds.

 

[lintin]

You'd rather London to Manchester on some old bouncy slam door train than a quiet, smooth Pendalino (sp?)

what you're forgetting is the technological upgrades that woul have happened anyway, more so if it was br. in fact we would probably have a network of tgvs running by now, fully integated with european network, rather than the sorry excuse we have now

 

[teuchter]

in fact we would probably have a network of tgvs running by now, fully integated with european network, rather than the sorry excuse we have now

Seems unlikely somehow.

 

[tbaldwin]

Posters calling for the reintroduction of BR have either forgotten what BR was really like ar are too young to remember - lousy time keeping, crap food, non existent customer service, filthy trains, nil investment, etc.

Anybody who thinks privatisation has worked should look at how susidies have grown massively under privatisation....While the vast majority of us have lost thousands a few people have made millions....

 

[davesgcr]

As someone who has just done 30 years in the railway business (old git I know) - and nearly 20 years in old BR , I can honestly say that one thing BR had was a common sense of purpose and community. Not all good of course and there were some distinctly bad things in my first 10 years when the bureaucracy stifled movement and innovation - from about the early / mid 1980's there was a distinct entrepreneurial mood , where all of a sudden you could spend money on your own pet schemes and with good authority , I remember one brilliant day when I set up a whole new flow of traffic worth nearly half a million quid (and put about 10 new traincrew jobs into an "uncertain" depot , and trimmed out a bucket of costs without putting anyone on the street. Proper Network South East and Inter city really did move things one , and pathetic little rants about dirty trains and unwelcome staff is about as offensive to me and other managers and supervisors , who frankly joined for the love of the railway with a real will to do things right and better, as one ex PM who called BR "deeply inefficient"

We had some great times , and often for not a lot of money - with real time safety and commercial responsobilities - but you cant go back now , much like many of the old pre 1948 company staff who really didnt want a nationalised industry.! Got to make the best of it - at least the railway has a better (overall) image than in recent years - 94% of trains yesterday within schedule and i dont see many "dirty" trains these days.

I do miss the weekly all UK vacancy list though - you could apply for a ticket office job in Mallaig , a Station Manager in Sidcup (or my personal favourite of all time) - a Supervisor "C" (i.e entitled to the lowest grade of gold braid cap) as Officer in charge of the Harwich dredger ......

 

[Isambard]

Bayerisch Eisenstein / Zelezna Ruda.

Nasty dangerous socialist train (right) just arrived from Klatovy (CZ) offering connections with nasty socialist train (left) leaving for Plattling (Ger).

Publicly agreed subsidies, publicly agreed timetable, publicly agreed integrated tarifs. Disgusting affront to the free market!

Looking forward to being there next week.

 

[teuchter]

Bayerisch Eisenstein / Zelezna Ruda.

Nasty dangerous socialist train (right) just arrived from Klatovy (CZ) offering connections with nasty socialist train (left)

From what I can see the Regentalbahn is actually operated by a company part-owned by Arriva, under contract to DB.

Is that particularly any more socialist than Arriva working services in the UK under a franchise from the DfT?

 

[Meltingpot]

Although the rebranding galls because it's such a visible waste of money and materials, I suspect the leasing of rolling stock is a far costlier by product of short franchises.

Is there any other country in Europe that rents its trains?

I don't think so, and I doubt there's one that transports its trains by road either (because it's cheaper apparently). Lunacy.

 

[PacificOcean]

Blimey, and I thought Enfield Lock station and National Express trains looked basic and run down - it's almost Grand Central compared to that!

 

[ViolentPanda]

The issues in Berlin are a direct result of a crazy desire for full privatisation of DB as a rail operator.

In a way, the system as it is now is kind of working as they are losing millions for failing to provide the agreed level of service and other operators have stated they would bid for the contract if was on the market again. There is also an open discussion about transferring the Berlin suburban trains to the publicly owned underground/tram/bus operator BVG.

When I was there in late 2008 there were posters up near stations soliciting public opinion, although whether they were put up by BVG or by a passenger group I can't remember.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Posters calling for the reintroduction of BR have either forgotten what BR was really like ar are too young to remember - lousy time keeping, crap food, non existent customer service, filthy trains, nil investment, etc.

Talk about a sweeping generalisation!

Tell you what, bry. I was around then and I haven't forgotten what it was like. It's you that seems to have done that (or had your memories replaced by tabloid bullshit).

 

[ViolentPanda]

National Express still use them on the Liverpool Street - Norwich route if you fancy a bit of nostalgia!

Used that route earlier in the month to go visit my folks, and I have to say that from an accessibility point of view they're crap, but then so are most of the newer trains. That said, at least the seats are a decent size, and there's legroom.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Seems unlikely somehow.

I'm not so sure. We need to bear in mind that in about a five year run-up to the sell-off, many projects were cancelled, including signalling updates, track replacement and rolling stock development. Most of these projects would have been in place by around 2005 (according to a mate who still works on the S & T side). Privatisation and the anticipation of it stymied development.

 

[PacificOcean]

Used that route earlier in the month to go visit my folks, and I have to say that from an accessibility point of view they're crap, but then so are most of the newer trains. That said, at least the seats are a decent size, and there's legroom.

I suppose on a line to Norwich, you don't need to squeeze so many people in as on a busy route like Euston - Manchester?

 

[teuchter]

I'm not so sure. We need to bear in mind that in about a five year run-up to the sell-off, many projects were cancelled, including signalling updates, track replacement and rolling stock development. Most of these projects would have been in place by around 2005 (according to a mate who still works on the S & T side). Privatisation and the anticipation of it stymied development.

Yes, but it would have needed a substantial amount of extra investment to build proper HS lines. It somehow seems unlikely that New Labour would have committed to anything like that even if they had inherited a nationalised railway.

 

[teuchter]

I suppose on a line to Norwich, you don't need to squeeze so many people in as on a busy route like Euston - Manchester?

Probably more to do with the fact that the Mk 3 stock was specified by British Rail rather than an airline company.

 

[Isambard]

@ Teuchter

Indeed the Waldbahn is operated by a partially Arriva owned company under contract to DB. They operate though a service specified by the local regional government (BayernTakt = hourly service 0700-2200 seven days a week and timetabled connections at the junctions Zwiesel and Plattling) and have to be in the national fares and and railcard system as well as the regional off-peak fares scheme Bayern Ticket.And the trains are much nice than the DMUs of Arriva Trains Cymru.

@ Pacific Ocean. The platform is pretty bare at Bayerisch Eisenstein / Zelena Ruda. What you can't in the picture is the bus shelter behind me on the German end of the platform. But there's a pub / restaurant and clean toilets and waiting room in both sides of the station. You can even stay the night in the Czech end and the Czech station is also staffed.

Yeah, that's a pretty old Czech train, I took the photo as it's quite a rarity on that line now. The longer distance trains to Pilsen and Prague are loco and (say) Mark 1-2 equivilent coaches and most local trains on this line are now in these yellow babies, the Regio Nova - accesable and CLEAN toilets:

 

[teuchter]

@ Teuchter

Indeed the Waldbahn is operated by a partially Arriva owned company under contract to DB. They operate though a service specified by the local regional government (BayernTakt = hourly service 0700-2200 seven days a week and timetabled connections at the junctions Zwiesel and Plattling) and have to be in the national fares and and railcard system as well as the regional off-peak fares scheme Bayern Ticket.And the trains are much nice than the DMUs of Arriva Trains Cymru.

Which is exactly the kind of thing I think we need to be aiming for in this country, rather than calling for renationalisation.

It seems to me that the main problem with our railways is not necessarily that they are [part]privatised, but the way in which they were privatised and are consequently now organised, and crucially, the way they are regulated and funded.

Renationalising isn't going to cure any of the problems of a government that is unwilling to properly invest in the first place. Labour have explicitly stated that their intention is to transfer more of the cost of rail transport onto the passenger, rather than the taxpayer. If that is their attitude it doesn't really matter to what extent the system is privatised. In other words, they seem to see the railways more as a commercial enterprise than a public service. They also fail to regulate fares and ticketing properly in the interests of the passenger (rather than in the interests of the train companies) and again I don't see how renationalising would cure that.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the German railways over the next ten years or so. I think they probably have the best rail network in Europe at the moment and I wonder whether they will be able to maintain this standard as more private operators are gradually introduced into the system.