No, I only get involved in things that I think are going to achieve something useful. So a campaign of direct action in order to disrupt the supply chain in a specific war as part of a wider campaign would be something I'm interested in (the Smash EDO action during Operation Cast Lead was pretty cool), I just don't think it's very helpful campaigning against the arms trade itself.So... you only get involved in things that are likely to bring about the immediate downfall of oppressive government/state authority or a sudden end to all wars? What are your criteria for a 'worthwhile' action?
Brighton - 4th May
- Thread starter Corax
- Start date
So my active and material support for the Ford Visteon workers during their occupation, my positive comments about the Israeli refuseniks, the IWW, LCAP, SolFed, this new social centre in Birmingham, etc., how do you explain that? Or is it just that you enjoy saying things that aren't true?
process mate .. it about process
Corax
Luke 5:16
You don't seem to have read much about the background to the campaign.
What makes you say that? I'm aware that Smash EDO have been involved in some specifically targetted stuff, which I'm broadly in favour of (though I'd question how great an impact it's likely to have in the grand scheme of things), I just think that the wider campagin to shut down the factory is silly, given that it's not really going to achieve anything of any real worth.
Corax
Luke 5:16
Because it seems like a contradiction to me. The 'wider campaign' is targeted.
Look, it's very fucking simple, I'm not totally opposed to everything Smash EDO does. I just don't think that it's worthwhile going about pretending you're going to permenantly shut down an arms factory when:
- Your ability to do so is basically non-existant;
- It'd just lead to another factory opening elsewhere and;
- The factory is a major employer locally
The use of "you" and "your" was impersonal, not aimed at you.
I disagree, there are plenty of forms of action that can provide clear, measurable sucesses, I just don't see that this is one of them. I mean, do you really think that a small minority of activists is actually going to shut down a fucking arms factory?
That thing Topcat keeps saying? The one that has been repeatedly shown to be complete bollocks?
It's not really about different groups, it's about some people being incapable of responding to disagreement sensibly.tar1984 said:
lol, well put
Corax
Luke 5:16
You start your post with "Look, it's very fucking simple", just what do you expect?
You keep ignoring what I'm actually saying, attributing opinions to me that completely contradict things that I've said and generally acting the tit, are you really shocked that it's starting to annoy me?
Corax
Luke 5:16
Leaving aside the debate over whether everyone should have just stayed home and watched telly instead...
There was a medic at the protest in a green paramedic uniform with the NHS logo on it, although rather hidden under body-armour.
He confirmed that he was employed by the NHS not the police, and carried no shield or baton. His filth minder said that Kent use proper NHS medics, rather than the 'Medic' thugs with first aid training that were evident at G20.
I asked him (the NHS medic) whether he agreed that the Met/CoL etc's use of riot cops with 'Medic' on their backs, seen happily batoning the crap out of people, potentially put people like him at risk. He agreed that it did.
I believe this should be a point of concern for any paramedics that do this kind of stuff, and thus (surely?) the union. If so, what would be the best way of bringing it to their attention?
There was a medic at the protest in a green paramedic uniform with the NHS logo on it, although rather hidden under body-armour.
He confirmed that he was employed by the NHS not the police, and carried no shield or baton. His filth minder said that Kent use proper NHS medics, rather than the 'Medic' thugs with first aid training that were evident at G20.
I asked him (the NHS medic) whether he agreed that the Met/CoL etc's use of riot cops with 'Medic' on their backs, seen happily batoning the crap out of people, potentially put people like him at risk. He agreed that it did.
I believe this should be a point of concern for any paramedics that do this kind of stuff, and thus (surely?) the union. If so, what would be the best way of bringing it to their attention?
Yes, that's what I'm saying, that everyone should have just stayed home and watched telly
Actually, I never said that I thought there was anything wrong with targetting EDO with anti-war protests, I just think that this "Let's go around asking a business to shut down it's source of income" stuff is silly. Even if you were able to force EDO/ITT to shut down, it wouldn't actually stop bombs and bullets from being produced.
I also think that some of the things that went on at the demo were fucking stupid and anti-social (Throwing things at a McDonalds with people inside? Tipping over people's bins? Vandalising cars?)
Nah, plenty of protests are a waste of time, whatever the participants think. Just look at Feb 15th. If that wasn't a complete waste of time and energy, I don't know what is.
More likely it would just shut down its operation in the UK and move everything to a US base. With the subsequent loss of jobs for people in Brighton, etc... Great move for the protesters in these hard-times...
Corax
Luke 5:16
More likely it would just shut down its operation in the UK and move everything to a US base. With the subsequent loss of jobs for people in Brighton, etc... Great move for the protesters in these hard-times...
So we should support arms manufacturers so long as they're providing local jobs for local people?
Given that this arms manufacturers can spring up a new subsidery anywhere it wants and this is "the worse recession evah" I would go with local jobs.
Not only simplistic but not an equation.
The loss of the jobs in Brighton wouldn't necessarily lead to lives being saved in the Middle East, the weapons would still be produced, just not in Brighton. Even so, ending arms production in Brighton doesn't necessarily mean shutting down the factory, there's nothing about that place that means that it has to be used to manufacture equipment for the military.
winjer
holocene death beat
~100 staff is a major employer?
Fucked if I know, isn't Brighton made up entirely of an arms factory, a McDonalds with paint up the windows and two health food shops?
TBH, it must be one of the bigger single employers in the town. I wouldn't be surprised, if, due to it's placing, it also provides employment for people on the neighbouring council estate
The only other big employers here are Amex and Lloyds/TSB (if the latter still have a reasonable sized office - which I think they do) Other than those two, there aren't any major businesses now. BT offices have gone and Alliance + Leicester left Hove a while back
Unfortunately, this time, the demo does seem to have had an adverse effect. Quite a few people I've spoken to since are definitely critical of the demonstration and are quite pro EDO (or at least anti-demo)
Corax
Luke 5:16
Maybe you only see the future pessimistically. I believe that if there was enough pressure in the UK, the US, China etc against the manufacture of arms then it would have a detrimental effect upon the supply of weaponry to conflict zones. How much of an effect would depend upon the government of the time, but they could be forced to pass legislation that hindered the trade in some way at least. The likelihood of that level of pressure being reached is undetermined and open to debate. It would also have to be sustained, as I suspect that the state's tactic would be small, grudging, and time-consuming measures. But I know one thing, the biggest problem any cause faces in gaining support is mobilising the masses that don't get involved because they don't really think it'll change anything.
And if they altered their business model to the manufacture of bicycle parts and sustainable energy engineering, I strongly suspect that the protests would stop.
Do you have any idea how much money would be lost if any of what you said happened? We're just not going to see a movement with that kind of power primarily motivated by something as abstract (to people in this country) as the arms trade.
What's your point, caller?
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