Brighton - 4th May

[In Bloom]

I don't really get the whole generic anti-arms trade thing. As long as capitalism exists, there will be an arms trade, because violence and war is inherent to capitalism. Even if Smash EDO shut down the factory in Brighton, another one would spring up elsewhere.

Does that not strike anybody else as setting yourself up for disappointment?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

A few pics on the Argus's *spits* website http://www.theargus.co.uk/photos/ourphotos/argusphotos2009/smashedo/

There's a comment written beneath one photo saying that tear gas was used outside McShite on London Road. It certainly wasn't cs gas, but smoke from a flare thrown under a meat wagon.

 

[winjer]

Apart from those two times, I saw rest of it, and there was really no trouble at all.

The most 'trouble' was some scuffles on Ditchling Road on the way up, Stanford Avenue on the way down - where there was one arrest, and trying to go up Trafalgar St after the crowd had split.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Even if Smash EDO shut down the factory in Brighton, another one would spring up elsewhere.

Does that not strike anybody else as setting yourself up for disappointment?

Spring up elsewhere it probably would, but people would continue to protest to have it shut down. Yesterday's protest caused enough chaos throughout the town, & that certainly has to be food for thought.

 

[In Bloom]

Spring up elsewhere it probably would, but people would continue to protest to have it shut down.

Is that not a bit circular though? I mean, where does it get you?

 

[TopCat]

I don't really get the whole generic anti-arms trade thing. As long as capitalism exists, there will be an arms trade, because violence and war is inherent to capitalism. Even if Smash EDO shut down the factory in Brighton, another one would spring up elsewhere.

Does that not strike anybody else as setting yourself up for disappointment?

We all had a great time, very empowering it was.

 

[TopCat]

Is that not a bit circular though? I mean, where does it get you?

Could you just set up a thread of your own instead of piggy backing on this popular thread and derailing it?

 

[Corax]

I don't really get the whole generic anti-arms trade thing. As long as capitalism exists, there will be an arms trade, because violence and war is inherent to capitalism. Even if Smash EDO shut down the factory in Brighton, another one would spring up elsewhere.

Does that not strike anybody else as setting yourself up for disappointment?

It's mister positive again!

Anti-arms, anti-cap, anti-insane-perpetual-drive-for-growth, anti-government, anti-resource-rape & climate-change: they're all valid, each addressing different symptoms of the same malaise.

It's not a zero-sum game.

/hyphen bonanza

 

[Corax]

The thing I got asked most often by spectators yesterday was about masking up. After explaining about police tactics of surveillance, databasing and intimidation most of them appreciated what it was about (didn't touch on providing anonymity for DActivists - not such an easy message that one). But the instant reaction most seemed to have to masking was, eg:

"Why are you hiding if you're not doing anything wrong?"
"You're just a bunch of cowards hiding behind masks"
"If you're really standing up for what you believe in, why not show your faces?"
"I get photographed 30 times on the drive in to work, what's the difference?"

All easy questions for most here to answer. And most that listened had some sympathy with the position. I walked off from 2 different blokes telling them there was no point as they weren't listening, just shouting. To their credit, both times they called me back, STFU, listened, and got it.

But... most of the population wasn't sitting outside a Brighton pub chatting with anarchists yesterday, and I think most people in the UK (dunno if it's better understood in France, Greece, for eg) are genuinely baffled as to how masking could be necessary and/or not hiding violent criminal intent.

This desparately needs addressing if any activist movements are going to make inroads into the 'majority'. Not sure how... it needs to be offline, as the net's already covered left, right & centre. Full-page ads about masking in national papers, cost shared between numerous groups? Dunno...

The black bloc are needed more than ever now, to protect the growing mass of fluffies. Their proper purpose, and why, needs spreading.

If this doesn't happen, I see three effects in particular:

No public sympathy, therefore no acceleration.​

Any protest gets submerged in negative press about black bloc actions (as now)​

Growing division as the new fluffy converts perceive their message being 'ruined' by black bloc, who respond in turn with accusations of weakness. Neither side, on the whole, seems to currently recognise the necessity of the other.​

 

[In Bloom]

It's mister positive again!

Anti-arms, anti-cap, anti-insane-perpetual-drive-for-growth, anti-government, anti-resource-rape & climate-change: they're all valid, each addressing different symptoms of the same malaise.

It's not a zero-sum game.

/hyphen bonanza

That's not really an answer though. I mean, yeah, you can do anti-arms trade stuff without it impacting negatively on anything else, and I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just don't see the point in a movement that can never be truly successful.

 

[In Bloom]

We all had a great time, very empowering it was.

So? Who cares if it's "empowering"? Are you an anarchist or a therepist?

And trying to discuss anti-arms trade protests on a thread about an anti-arms trade protest isn't exactly derailing it.

 

[TopCat]

You don't support protesting against the arms trade. So why not state that position then leave? In fact you could keep your witterings confined to one thread, a low read count thread that would be....

 

[Cobbles]

I don't really get the whole generic anti-arms trade thing. As long as capitalism exists, there will be an arms trade, because violence and war is inherent to capitalism. Even if Smash EDO shut down the factory in Brighton, another one would spring up elsewhere.

There's loads of arms manufacturers in Russia and China - I never knew they were filthy capitalists!

 

[Corax]

Seems you need a Capitalism-Authoritarian Government-Finance-Arms Industry-et cetera flowchart.

Sadly, I'm not the man to provide it. Not into spoon-feeding.

 

[Cobbles]

Seems you need a Capitalism-Authoritarian Government-Finance-Arms Industry-et cetera flowchart.

Sadly, I'm not the man to provide it. Not into spoon-feeding.

So why not have a wee ruck outside a manufacturer of flexible circuit boards that may or may not be used in military applications) in China or a Russian AP mine factory?

 

[Corax]

that may or may not be

Rather different from a purpose-designed mechanism.

Which, with all due respect, is fucking obvious.

 

[Corax]

This police blogger seems willing to accept dissenting comments, despite premoderation.

 

[e19896]

This police blogger seems willing to accept dissenting comments, despite premoderation.

Gose to show why we need to be carfull what we publish and write up along with images, they read indy and fit watch.. Now i know there reading, well done once more to all there..

 

[In Bloom]

You don't support protesting against the arms trade. So why not state that position then leave? In fact you could keep your witterings confined to one thread, a low read count thread that would be....

Because I happen to think that debate is important. If you don't, then you don't have to reply, it just makes you look a bit feeble.

 

[TopCat]

Because I happen to think that debate is important. If you don't, then you don't have to reply, it just makes you look a bit feeble.

But you don't debate do you? A debate has to involve the exchange of ideas and a modicum of respect too. You just slag off any action not involving the Anarchist Federation (federation of what exactly?) when you are myopic enough to miss the obvious that the Anarchist Federation have had no impact at all.

 

[Corax]

That's not really an answer though. I mean, yeah, you can do anti-arms trade stuff without it impacting negatively on anything else, and I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just don't see the point in a movement that can never be truly successful.

You seem to have utterly ignored the point.

 

[In Bloom]

There's loads of arms manufacturers in Russia and China - I never knew they were filthy capitalists!

So the last couple of decades just sort of passed you by, yeah?

 

[In Bloom]

But you don't debate do you? A debate has to involve the exchange of ideas and a modicum of respect too. You just slag off any action not involving the Anarchist Federation (federation of what exactly?) when you are myopic enough to miss the obvious that the Anarchist Federation have had no impact at all.

You are a fucking liar

 

[e19896]

That's not really an answer though. I mean, yeah, you can do anti-arms trade stuff without it impacting negatively on anything else, and I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just don't see the point in a movement that can never be truly successful.

Here is not the place to talk about being successful but there are some grand direct actions, http://www.tridentploughshares.org/index.php3 http://www.caat.org.uk/ are 2 from top of my head that erm have been and proven successful..

(reson for not talking to much ongoing court case ie Smash EDO)

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Until the next time....

 

[In Bloom]

Here is not the place to talk about being successful but there are some grand direct actions, http://www.tridentploughshares.org/index.php3 http://www.caat.org.uk/ are 2 from top of my head that erm have been and proven successful..

They haven't really though, have they? CAAT and Trident Ploughshares haven't done any real damage to the arms trade, they haven't stopped the weapons from being made or delivered, they haven't saved one single life.

 

[In Bloom]

You seem to have utterly ignored the point.

I get your point, I just don't see that it's relevant. Like any other business, the arms trade just supplies the commodities to satisfy a demand, shut down EDO and BAE systems will pick up the slack, shut them all down and new companies will set up.

 

[e19896]

They haven't really though, have they? CAAT and Trident Ploughshares haven't done any real damage to the arms trade, they haven't stopped the weapons from being made or delivered, they haven't saved one single life.

Your full of shit to be frank, they haven't stopped the weapons from being made or delivered, they haven't saved one single life?

I aint debateing with such a prat:

 

[Corax]

I get your point, I just don't see that it's relevant. Like any other business, the arms trade just supplies the commodities to satisfy a demand, shut down EDO and BAE systems will pick up the slack, shut them all down and new companies will set up.

So... you only get involved in things that are likely to bring about the immediate downfall of oppressive government/state authority or a sudden end to all wars? What are your criteria for a 'worthwhile' action?

 

[TopCat]

So... you only get involved in things that are likely to bring about the immediate downfall of oppressive government/state authority or a sudden end to all wars? What are your criteria for a 'worthwhile' action?

Any action by the AF is good, anything else is wrong and stupid and the people involved should ask the AF nicely if they can join and be told what to think.