Brian Bows Out of Brixton

Discussion in 'Brixton' started by Brian, Dec 6, 2002.

  1. Stobart Stopper

    Stobart Stopper Well-Known Member

    Poor you! I am sure you did well, wish I could hear the whole of that R4 slot...... I was on school run! Is the Hardtalk interview on for one hour?
  2. hatboy

    hatboy Banned Banned

    God I've been thru this shit with so many people so many times I really can't be bothered to go back and explain it all again from the start just for people like icepick.

    I've countered all you "all cops are bastards" lot:

    Fawning over Brian - Not guilty!

    Respecting the Met as an institution - Not guilty!

    Liking one policeman in a high position in my area who tried to improve communication and trust between the community and the police - Guilty!

    Free-spirit - what does 8 police arresting you in Parliament Square have to do with the former Commander of Lambeth?

    Parliament Square is in Westminster, er, not a part of Lambeth. :rolleyes:
  3. TeeJay

    TeeJay New Member

    Re: Re: What a load of shit!

    Much as this deserves a proper response, I'll leave it to another thread. Won't want anyone to think I'm just another politician who wants to take over everything.;)
  4. TeeJay

    TeeJay New Member

    Doesn't anyone know who Simon Foy is/was? (Well I'm sure Brian Paddick does, but what about the rest of you 'experts'). And why is this a big deal? Lets just say that this reflects the power of the media to 'set the agenda' even for self-professed 'alternative' types.

    Also, here's the 'silver lining': 1. Who's to say Lambeth won't get another good Commander & 2. Maybe Brian Paddick will be the head of the Met one day - onwards and upwards.;)
  5. Jessiedog

    Jessiedog Keeping the faith.

    free spirit,

    A humourous, good natured and poignent post!




    Sit tight! The worst (I hope) is over.


  6. ats

    ats Well-Known Member

    I remember Simon Foy - a decent enough senior copper if you didn't mind a slight New Zealand accent, and not dissimilar to many who have given out defensive expanations of police behaviour over the years. As such, he's a good example to use to show what it is that Brian Paddick has been able to bring to Lambeth - a willingness to engage with the community in a way that senior police have never done before, and have not been doing since Paddick's suspension.

    Many many people over the years have tried to persuade us that we should accept what the police are doing. Very few have been willing to listen. That's what makes Brian Paddick unusual - he sees the process as being a two-way one, where the police have to learn from the community as well as vice-versa.

    I was very interested to hear from the Radio Four interview withMichael Buerk that the whole cannabis experiment came about because the prosecution of a young PC for dropping some confiscated dope rather than making an arrest (pretty much standard practice in Lambeth - in almost seven years of lay visiting I've never come across anyone being held in police cels for possession of cannabis) meant that PCs were stating that they were going to arrest anyone they found in possession of the slightest quantity of dope.

    A lot of senior managers, in all sorts of fields, would have fudged a situation like this. The ability to come up with a clear, decisive response to a tricky situation is what makes someone like Brian Paddick good at his job. Something that is not, perhaps, emphasised enough in discussions of all this is that Brian was well respected by his junior officers, because they felt he suported them. When running the lambeth4paddick stall at the Coutry Show, we were astonished to see how many police were coming in to ask for T-shirts and baseball caps.

    Winning the support of the community, while maintaining the confidence of his junior officers - that's quite an achievement. Doing it while focusing police resources on the serious crimes such as crack and guns - of course that's a major achievement.

    P.S. Note to Brian: Please, please, whatever anyone is urging, don't go into politics. Your talents would be completely thrown away as a powerless backbencher. If you decide to leave the police - and I'm not saying that that is necessarily an apppropriate course of action - there are much better fields for you to make your mark in.

    You have decisiveness, leadership, an ability to inspire others and great humanity. (I shall always remember seeing you break the news to a man in custody that his father had died. You handled it with tact, sensitivity and calmness.)

    Whatever you do next, you have created a yardstick against which senior police officers in Lambeth will be judged by the community.
  7. TeeJay

    TeeJay New Member

    While I support all the good work that Brian Paddick had done, the reason I raised the issue of Simon Foy is because I feel that not enough credit is being given to other 'progressive elements' within the police force. Brian Paddick didn't suddenly appear from nowhere and doesn't exist in a vacuum. If he really was one totally isolated individual he wouldn't really have made that much difference, but he isn't and so he did make a difference.

    The irony is that his high visibility was a double edged sword. Locally it was a benefit in that it enabled much better police-community relations, but in the wider national context, by being so visible he became an irresistable target for media and party political point-scoring.

    The question that we should ask ourselves now therefore is if we had to choose between someone with a high profile (with the benefits and problems associated with it) or someone who maybe on the surface was more 'conservative', but who was still more progressive 'behind the scenes' and 'on the ground', which would we choose?

    Another thing to consider when wishing Brian Paddick well is the hope that his future career success and promotion to a senior post in the Met may inspire other young police officers to have the courage of their convictions and not be afraid to 'push the envelope' and take risks with new and pioneering approaches to policing. This also goes beyond what we would normally consider police work to encompass having an input to crime reduction policies generally.
  8. hatboy

    hatboy Banned Banned

    I saw you on Hardtalk Brian. Fuck, that must have been difficult. I thought you were impressive. Tim Sebastian was a really tough bastard from the outset and you got the whole story across* and managed to keep cool despite his clear opposing position (I know interviewers aren't supposed to take sides, but he really did seem to be against you).

    This is worth watching tonight (Thurs) at 10.30 on BBC News 24 even if you don't much like Paddick or aren't interested in him, just for the tension.

    *whole story - the interview was confined to the cannabis pilot, which wasn't your main acheivement. Your main acheivement here was dialog and developing trust IMO.

    U75 didn't get a mention. But I thought that was fine. As I said earlier this thing happened in real-life Lambeth and didn't centre around U75, although U75 was definitely a part of the Paddick story.

    Anyway mate, when's the film coming out?

  9. h0ax

    h0ax money for old rope cocker

    Hardtalk is on tonight on News24 at 10.30, for those interested...
  10. Beanis

    Beanis New Member

    if your so liberal how come you joined the police.
    i dont know all the facts, but what i do know is that if your so keen on changing things, why the hell were you in the police for 20 odd years.
  11. Masseuse

    Masseuse One thing or another

    God, in a few years this whole episode is going to seem so backward and bizarre.

    Good luck for the future Brian. At least those "Dark Forces" we hear so much about didn't arrange for a convenient accident.
  12. editor

    editor Forked with electrons

    ...then perhaps you should research them before commenting from a position of sheer ignorance?
  13. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member

    For those of us who go to bed at night, don't have satellite and can't remember how to set the vid, the programme is available at the
    Hardtalk Webpage.
  14. icepick

    icepick Well-Known Member

    So you know everything do you?


    Then maybe you shouldn't comment on anything then, commenting from a position of sheer ignorance.

    (Or you wouldn't just be having a go at everyone who doesn't love Brian would you? :eek: )
  15. editor

    editor Forked with electrons

    Oh dear. I see icepick's desperate to score points!

    But anyone who starts a post personally criticising someone with the foreword, "I don't know all the facts but..." deserves all they get.

    The facts are so incredibly easy to find so why defend someone too lazy to look them up?

    But there again, you're a bit of a fan of clueless bumbling, personal attacks, intelligent debate-reducing sloganeering (like your chum's 'I HATE THE POLICE' squeak) and posts that are 100% content-free when it comes to offering pragmatic, real world alternatives.

    And are you going to apologise for this disgraceful, disgusting, libellous remark or shall I have just to ban you instead?
    It really was an unacceptable comment.
  16. tarannau

    tarannau Mongolian eyed

    you are a silly little boy aren't you icepick? :rolleyes:

    It's one thing having to reason your posts and give a persuasive argument, quite another to make a facetious comment with little understanding or experience of the overall situation.

    Whilst it must be tough to mould your limited intellect around the principle that not everything in life is simply black or white, I'd ask you to try. The fact that many of us here have supported Paddick and valued his achievements, is a far cry from unreservedly loving the man and cheerleading for the police.

    The sooner you understand that the better. Not everyone has to be over-simplistic and objectionable....

    (edited after Editor's post: congrats icepick - racist nastiness and cheap jibes to go with your general foolishness. Well done fuckwit)
  17. LieGerm

    LieGerm Drug of the nation

    Brian, I heard you on a radio 4 interview the other morning and all I can say is, much respect; you have triumphed. One day your critics will see this.:p

    There are not many people willing to actually make a stand for their principles, and those that do are often bullied back in to being part of a mindless flock. You have inspired, and I'm sure you'll carry on being a human being with a conscience no matter what job you end up doing next.

    :D Best of luck, me old mucker!:D
  18. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    In fairness to Icepick (huh when has that ever been said by anyone here) I don't think he meant anything 'racist' by mentioning the word nigger. I think he had read a few of Adam Porter's posts which also make the same reference.

    However I work with black kids everyday and I don't think a comment like that from some middle-class so-called anarchist is useful or relevant.

    It is also out of order for him to be launching into the editor who has invested a lot of time, money and commitment into this website. You don't go around someone's house and shit on their beds.

    He may be immature and just showing off a pseudo-revolutionary and radical attitude, but using the word like that should only be left to black people themselves. Adam Porter, a middle-class Jewish Englishman should not either be allowed to describe himself as a 'nigger' as he has done on several occasions.

    Back to the subject - this is not a black and white case. Many many police officers join because they wish to serve their communities, not to enforce racism or capitalism. I wholeheartedly believe that if the violent Communist revolution which I dream of comes, many of the boys and girls in blue would change sides and join the people.
  19. Eddie E

    Eddie E New Member R.I.P.

    Can I open a small window onto the career of policing.

    Firstly there is no such a thing as an average policemen. Each individual has a different career path, spending time on a variety of different subjects. Each and every day of his working life he makes decisons about taking action or not taking action.
    There is more than ample authority for any officer to make up his or her own mind (with a few boring exceptions) about what action to take and over my thirty years I can recall nothing I did about which I had serious misgivings or was totally opposed.

    Strangely enough, during that thirty years I grew up, I learned more about some topics and in later career did many things differently to how I would have done them earier when less well informed. Sometimes the decisions were influenced by pressures such as time, other demands and the surrounding circumstances - and I hope I grew to take all these into account.

    Similarly I recognised that some officers did things with which they agreed but I was hesitant. They, sometimes, failed to understand exactly what motivated me to make some of my decisions. Across all that period the number I found in the 'bastard' category were very limited and I have come across more examples pro rata in my private life than within the police.

    I don't take the posted criticisms of 'police' at all personally because, more than most, I know there is no such object as 'the police'. When criticism is directed at individuals I examine it as I would suggestions against any other private individual. I view it exactly as I view criticism of 'the state' - I look for the wrongdoing of the individual and respond accordingly.

    There will always be views about the individuals within any career but having such a career does not warrant anyone attributing any beliefs to me, I made my own mind up about a whole series of issues. It certainly gives nobody authority to credit me with any particular political beliefs, indeed many of the political adjectives that I thought I understood over my life seem, recently, to be inaccurate and I have grave difficulty interpreting many of them.

    Any organisation may have generally recognisable attributes but that is far from ensuring that the individuals within it share them all. Do you seriously believe that everyone within any profession agrees totally with all the others. Look at the group, career, social circle, of which you are personally part and you will immediately know that this is the truth. The debates within policing circles make some discussed on these boards seem very minor. There are a host of individuals with individual positions, individual beliefs and certainly individual behaviours.

    During their career some policemen have an effect not only on the people with whom they deal directly but upon the development of policing. Despite my own involvement with the legalisation debate I am strongly of the opinion that Brian's distinction was in taking the risk of communicating. Its far less risky not to take that step. I know such a comment condems the general communicative abilities of policing generally, but that is a view I already hold strongly. It is changing, but ever so slowly.

    Accountability is important, and that does not always mean in retrospect, which is generally the UK position. Accountability should start before activity and that was the difference in Lambeth. We have adequate structures to ask retrospective questions but opening the way to questioning before decision making is new - that's why Lambeth was better off.

    Regards, even to Icepick
    Eddie E
  20. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    Fairplay and keep posting.
  21. exosculate

    exosculate a stagger with a beat

    So the Macpherson report presumably is a load of nonsense then i.e institutional racism of 'the police' as you put it. :)

    I always knew you were capable of formulating a view of the police - they are 'workers' then I presume earnest. :)
  22. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    Living in your student halls it'll take you a good few years before you know who the workers are. Go and play with icepick and the other Old Etonians. Soggy biscuit wasn't it?

    BTW The 'MacPherson Report' was produced by which so-called anarchist group? So why are you placing so much emphasis on a report published by the Liberal Capitalist State? You can't have it both ways.......
  23. exosculate

    exosculate a stagger with a beat

    Have I hurt your feelings - Im sorry. I feel you have an ego that needs a bit of deflating though. Your back to your old trick of picking on irrelevant things like

    Your young/a student - actually incorrect (why worry about this eh)

    When are you going to become Mr Spellchecker man ?

    Since you are a Stalinist - Im wondering how old you are - do they employ teachers in their 80's. Or are you merely a supply teacher ? :)
  24. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    I completely distrust the state and all its machinations.

    You take the MacPherson report (whatever that was about - tell me) as gospel.

    You also know NO coppers.

    So where does your superiority complex come from - apart form your self-instilled public school attitude?
  25. exosculate

    exosculate a stagger with a beat

    How do you know ?

    1) Whether I know any 'coppers'

    2) Or the type of school I attended

    Are you Mystic Earnest ? :)
  26. Friz

    Friz New Member

    The previous post from Eddie E is considered and makes the point that policemen are individuals. They are also workers in need of a job like everyone else. However the state takes the individual and mold him or her into an instrument and an enforcement tool to use on demand. Their individuality is secondary to their reason for being.
    The Lambeth experiment was and presumably still is a policy of the state. Mr Paddick was simply the instrument that carried it out. As an individual his skills of communication are good hence his personal popularity. However the state policy has now become confused. In the minds of joe public it's Paddick's policy and Paddick that deserves the credit for it's success. 'Victories have many fathers but defeat is an orphan'. In other words the messenger has become bigger than the message. That was his mistake. Hindsight is a wonderful gift but Paddick should have anticipated his lover trying to capitalise on his high profile. The policy of state risked being discredited so the messenger had to go. Presumably his successor will be a little more careful.
  27. Caspar Hauser

    Caspar Hauser Boy from Nowhere

    I am sorry Friz but all you are doing is making general assumption. From reading your post one can see that you have no knowledge about the 'Lambeth experiment' or the way the police and the law in England works (it's different to the system in continental Europe).
    It wasn't a state policy. It was the project of one police commander trying to tackle the problems in his borough. The state adopted this policy, not the other way around.
  28. Jessiedog

    Jessiedog Keeping the faith.

    My understanding of the sequence of events:

    1) Shortly before Brain took over as the Commander of Lambeth, a constable was arrested for not following procedure (the constable found a wee bit of cannabis on someone and chucked it down the drain rather than taking the person down to the shop and cautioning them (a complaint was made).

    2) All the constable's colleagues told Brian that they were going to, therefore, arrest everyone they came across with even the tiniest bit of cannabis, rather than risk there careers. This sounded like madness and a waste of police time to Brian.

    3) Unsure of his bosses response if he simply suggested to them his idea for the "cannabis pilot", Brian contacted a freelance journalist he new well and "flew a kite" by having the idea published in the Evening Standard.

    4) The public response was generally positive and armed with this, Brian discussed the idea further with his superiors who were supportive and the pilot was subsequently (and successfully) implemeted.

    5) Then, of course Brian's (ex?) partner sold his allegations to the gutter press.

    So, my understanding is that the idea was Brians and was backed by his superiors.


  29. Friz

    Friz New Member

    Ok, lets accept this is how it happened. It still becomes a policy of the state because Brian, as a servant of the state was carrying out a policy which they specifically authorised. In any organisation where ideas are suggested by staff and later adopted become the policy of the company. My previous post is still a valid conclusion to why he was justifibly removed.
  30. Caspar Hauser

    Caspar Hauser Boy from Nowhere

    Just out of interest, because you compare the police with a company. Who do you think owns this company 'Lambeth police' or 'The Metropolitan Police'? The residence of Lambeth or London? Or are they just the costumers of these services, but who owns it then?

    As for 'Victories have many fathers but defeat is an orphan'. You know when criticism on the experiment was at its height Commissioner Sir John Stevens referred to the scheme as the 'Paddick experiment'. It only became a 'Metropolitan Police experiment led by Commander Paddick' when it became a success.

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