Brexit & Scotland

[SaskiaJayne]

Before any vote for independence they would need to get their new currency sorted out presumably? Westminster made it clear that an independent Scotland could not use the £ & the EU stated that joining EU could take years so how would it work?

 

[wheelie_bin]

mandates the Scottish Government to have discussions with the UK Government, other devolved administrations, the EU institutions and member states to explore options for protecting Scotland’s relationship with the EU, Scotland’s place in the single market and the social, employment and economic benefits that come from that

Approved: 92 to 0. Tories abstain.

To be fair, the standard Leave supported EFTA+ option is going to meet the majority of that request, seeing as single market is a big part of that. Can't really see why the Tories even felt the need to abstain.

Interesting comment that I had a friend griping it should have been a 2/3 majority, I pointed out that even Scotland didn't manage that much enthusiasm for the EU. Silence since.

 

[danny la rouge]

Abstain, eh?
Interesting.

Indeed. They think it's all a ruse to get independence. But they're not paying attention.

Here's Sturgeon starting the debate: Official Report - Parliamentary Business :  Scottish Parliament

 

[danny la rouge]

Before any vote for independence they would need to get their new currency sorted out presumably? Westminster made it clear that an independent Scotland could not use the £ & the EU stated that joining EU could take years so how would it work?

Sturgeon isn't aiming for independence.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Sturgeon isn't aiming for independence.

So she wants Scotland still part of the UK but in the EU with the rest of the UK not in the EU or do you mean she wants to block the whole of the UK leaving the EU?

 

[wheelie_bin]

On Friday it sounded like she wanted a joint deal, Scotland in EU as well as in UK that's not in EU. Seems Juncker said to do one. Now it almost sounds like she's accepted EEA. Might want persuading to EFTA+, but of course Scotland is welcome to take more treaties, legislation, regulation etc than UK if it wants (all current bar Euro and Schengen).

 

[danny la rouge]

So she wants Scotland still part of the UK but in the EU with the rest of the UK not in the EU or do you mean she wants to block the whole of the UK leaving the EU?

In every statement she makes she says she wants to explore all options. She always says that far more times than she mentions indyref2. When she finally gets round to mentioning indyref2, she merely says it should be on the table. But we also know several other things are on the table, including what is being called a "reverse Greenland". IE, Scotland retains its EU membership when England and Wales leave. Scotland wouldn't be out asking to come in, but would simply not be part of the territory leaving at the end of the Article 50 procedure. 3 members of the British-Irish Council - Jersey, Guernsey & Isle of Man - are currently not part of the EU. Her preferred option, I believe, would be to arrange for Scotland to stay in the EU, while England & Wales joined Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

So Scotland as an EU member region of a Brexit UK.

If that can't be done, for whatever reason, then other options are circulating.

Sturgeon is thought to be cautious about indyref2. It's too soon, there's voter fatigue, there's no guarantee of winning, there's no sensible correlation between a Remain vote and a future Yes vote. So indyref2 is a bargaining chip. Maybe she has to play it, but she wants to try other options first.

She will say indyref2 is "highly likely", but she does not say when.

All of this is is readable in what she's said.


Nicola Sturgeon's full European Referendum result speech

 

[danny la rouge]

It looks like wee Jimmy Krankie has been told

Get to fuck with the misogynist fuckwittery.

 

[danny la rouge]

Seems Juncker said to do one.

Where's that coming from?

 

[wheelie_bin]

From her toning down the request after meeting him, rather than stepping up the heat.

 

[1%er]

Get to fuck with the misogynist fuckwittery.

Didn't hear that bullshit when people were talking about Thatcher, whys that I wonder?

Hypocritical bullshit

 

[danny la rouge]

From her toning down the request after meeting him, rather than stepping up the heat.

Ah. I wondered if there was a source speculating on the meeting.

 

[danny la rouge]

Didn't hear that bullshit when people were talking about Thatcher, whys that I wonder?

Hypocritical bullshit

I hated Thatcher, but didn't use misogynist language about her. Her appearance has nothing to do with my dislike of her policies and actions.

So your accusation of hypocrisy is incorrect.

 

[1%er]

I hated Thatcher, but didn't use misogynist language about her. Her appearance has nothing to do with my dislike of her policies and actions.

So your accusation of hypocrisy is incorrect.

In your view it is Misogynist, comparing someone to a TV character isn't Misogynist (may be you were claiming I'm being Misogynist about Janette Tough and I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick), I don't hate her I have no feelings about her at all, in fact I don't think I have ever spoken about her in a previous post.

But you are entitled to your small world view.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

In every statement she makes she says she wants to explore all options. She always says that far more times than she mentions indyref2. When she finally gets round to mentioning indyref2, she merely says it should be on the table. But we also know several other things are on the table, including what is being called a "reverse Greenland". IE, Scotland retains its EU membership when England and Wales leave. Scotland wouldn't be out asking to come in, but would simply not be part of the territory leaving at the end of the Article 50 procedure. 3 members of the British-Irish Council - Jersey, Guernsey & Isle of Man - are currently not part of the EU. Her preferred option, I believe, would be to arrange for Scotland to stay in the EU, while England & Wales joined Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

So Scotland as an EU member region of a Brexit UK.

If that can't be done, for whatever reason, then other options are circulating.

Sturgeon is thought to be cautious about indyref2. It's too soon, there's voter fatigue, there's no guarantee of winning, there's no sensible correlation between a Remain vote and a future Yes vote. So indyref2 is a bargaining chip. Maybe she has to play it, but she wants to try other options first.

She will say indyref2 is "highly likely", but she does not say when.

All of this is is readable in what she's said.


Nicola Sturgeon's full European Referendum result speech

With Scotland in & rest of UK out why should international banks etc move from London to mainland Europe when they can move to English speaking Edinburgh? Good move.

 

[danny la rouge]

With Scotland in & rest of UK out why should international banks etc move from London to mainland Europe when they can move to English speaking Edinburgh? Good move.

Precisely.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

With Scotland in & rest of UK out why should international banks etc move from London to mainland Europe when they can move to English speaking Edinburgh? Good move.

It's utter fantasy though. A Scotland in the UK and in the EU would be a massive stumbling block to closer integration; there is fuck all in it for the EU and as you state, it could keep the banks on British shores. Why would on earth would they want to do that?

 

[drew74]

In every statement she makes she says she wants to explore all options. She always says that far more times than she mentions indyref2. When she finally gets round to mentioning indyref2, she merely says it should be on the table. But we also know several other things are on the table, including what is being called a "reverse Greenland". IE, Scotland retains its EU membership when England and Wales leave. Scotland wouldn't be out asking to come in, but would simply not be part of the territory leaving at the end of the Article 50 procedure. 3 members of the British-Irish Council - Jersey, Guernsey & Isle of Man - are currently not part of the EU. Her preferred option, I believe, would be to arrange for Scotland to stay in the EU, while England & Wales joined Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

So Scotland as an EU member region of a Brexit UK.

If that can't be done, for whatever reason, then other options are circulating.

Sturgeon is thought to be cautious about indyref2. It's too soon, there's voter fatigue, there's no guarantee of winning, there's no sensible correlation between a Remain vote and a future Yes vote. So indyref2 is a bargaining chip. Maybe she has to play it, but she wants to try other options first.

She will say indyref2 is "highly likely", but she does not say when.

All of this is is readable in what she's said.


Nicola Sturgeon's full European Referendum result speech

I note with some joy that Peter Dow is the first comment on that

 

[danny la rouge]

I note with some joy that Peter Dow is the first comment on that

I hadn't noticed. I never read comments under articles.

 

[brogdale]

So, Tusk has told Sturgeon to fuck off, then?

His refusal is significant as the European Council comprises the heads of all the member states, who would have to unanimously agree to any special deal for Scotland, whether it was independent or not.

Several central and eastern European states are reported to be concerned that meeting Ms Sturgeon would encourage other separatist movements.

 

[drew74]

I hadn't noticed. I never read comments under articles.

well, you'll occasionally miss Peter

 

[wheelie_bin]

Dear Scotland, all of us in the UK like you, well just about everybody anyway. The EU doesn't, they've just told you. So fuck 'em and let's work together. Nicola Sturgeon to negotiate the exit deal, who's for it? It's not like we have a surfeit of good politicians working in our interests these days.

 

[danny la rouge]

So, Tusk has told Sturgeon to fuck off, then?

​

From that article:

"Although Mr Juncker’s diary means he is unable to meet Ms Sturgeon, he told television in Luxembourg that he will speak to her shortly."

So, the article may well be conjecture based on nothing. We'll have to wait and see. It's only day 5. There's a long way to go yet.

 

[kebabking]

From that article:

"Although Mr Juncker’s diary means he is unable to meet Ms Sturgeon, he told television in Luxembourg that he will speak to her shortly."

So, the article may well be conjecture based on nothing. We'll have to wait and see. It's only day 5. There's a long way to go yet.

While that may be technically true, the language is brush-off speak - and quite simply Brexit is the most damaging thing to have ever happened to the EU, easily on a par with any of the Greek financial stuff, for me it is inconceivable that Junker's diary hasn't been cleared of pretty much everything in order to deal with it.

The only things that it's less important than is Germany going bankrupt or Russian tanks crossing into Poland - neither of those things have happened, so he could easily meet the FM for an hour in the next week if he so chose. It's a stupid, unnecessary snub - and if it's designed to make Scotland grateful when the EU does eventually engage, I think it's likely to be unsuccessful.

 

[The Boy]

he could easily meet the FM for an hour in the next week if he so chose.

And it looks like he will, today. Whether that's to formally tell her it ain't happening remains to be seen.

 

[danny la rouge]

While that may be technically true, the language is brush-off speak - and quite simply Brexit is the most damaging thing to have ever happened to the EU, easily on a par with any of the Greek financial stuff, for me it is inconceivable that Junker's diary hasn't been cleared of pretty much everything in order to deal with it.

The only things that it's less important than is Germany going bankrupt or Russian tanks crossing into Poland - neither of those things have happened, so he could easily meet the FM for an hour in the next week if he so chose. It's a stupid, unnecessary snub - and if it's designed to make Scotland grateful when the EU does eventually engage, I think it's likely to be unsuccessful.

It would seem to me to be in the EU's interests to keep Scotland in the EU. If it doesn't have to lose 5 million citizens, why would it? Especially if keeping them retains a route to UK business for the single market.

It is possible that this is exactly why Scotland has to be stalled: a route through Edinburgh for UK business might let the Westminster Brexit negotiations off the hook too easily. But if that's the game plan, and it's just a guess, then it's a dangerous one, because Sturgeon's party faithful are applying pressure to hold indyref2. If the approaches to the EU look too fruitless too soon, she'll have to succumb to that internal pressure.

But as I say, it's not even a week since the Brexit result.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

.

 

[nuffsaid]

Now the SNP want to be recognised as the formal opposition in Parliament:

BBC - A bit more on the news we mentioned earlier that the Scottish National Party will today ask to be declared the official Oppositon at Westminster.

They say their leader Angus Robertson enjoys more support than Jeremy Corbyn.

There are 56 SNP MPs - but only 40 Labour MPs have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.

They also say they are able to fill all the relevant shadow posts to the government, unlike Mr Corbyn.

They point to Parliamentary rules which say the official Opposition must be "prepared to assume power."

A source said: "We have looked at Erskine May (the Parliamentary rule book) and will put it to the Speaker that the Labour Party no longer meet obligations to remain as the official Opposition."

 

[danny la rouge]

Now the SNP want to be recognised as the formal opposition in Parliament:

BBC - A bit more on the news we mentioned earlier that the Scottish National Party will today ask to be declared the official Oppositon at Westminster.

They say their leader Angus Robertson enjoys more support than Jeremy Corbyn.

There are 56 SNP MPs - but only 40 Labour MPs have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.

They also say they are able to fill all the relevant shadow posts to the government, unlike Mr Corbyn.

They point to Parliamentary rules which say the official Opposition must be "prepared to assume power."

A source said: "We have looked at Erskine May (the Parliamentary rule book) and will put it to the Speaker that the Labour Party no longer meet obligations to remain as the official Opposition."

That's pretty funny, it has to be said. I'm enjoying their style.

 

[gosub]

It would seem to me to be in the EU's interests to keep Scotland in the EU. If it doesn't have to lose 5 million citizens, why would it? Especially if keeping them retains a route to UK business for the single market.

It is possible that this is exactly why Scotland has to be stalled: a route through Edinburgh for UK business might let the Westminster Brexit negotiations off the hook too easily. But if that's the game plan, and it's just a guess, then it's a dangerous one, because Sturgeon's party faithful are applying pressure to hold indyref2. If the approaches to the EU look too fruitless too soon, she'll have to succumb to that internal pressure.

But as I say, it's not even a week since the Brexit result.

Don't just look at it as Scotland in relation to UK and EU. Think of it in terms of x in relation to the organisational structures of the EU:Commission/Parliament/Council and their relations to 28 member states.

If she wants to declare that referendum must be held before the prenegotiations have even started - Scottish Nationalism will get the bends.