Breaking News: Civil War in Gaza

[PartTimePongo]

I think Zionism is about 100 years old, right?

I doubt that the state of Israel will survive for another 100 the way it's going.

Israel will survive for another 100 years at least IMO.

 

[nino_savatte]

Israel will survive for another 100 years at least IMO.

What are you? A fairground fortune teller?

Maybe we should call you "Petulengro".

Cretin

 

[CyberRose]

I can see all this shit leading to a partition of Palestine with Hamas controlling Gaza and Fatah controlling with West Bank. Might work out ok for the Palestinians in Gaza but it would be disastrous for the Palestinians in the West Bank (and is probably what Israel is hoping will happen)

 

[warren]

I can see all this shit leading to a partition of Palestine with Hamas controlling Gaza and Fatah controlling with West Bank. Might work out ok for the Palestinians in Gaza but it would be disastrous for the Palestinians in the West Bank (and is probably what Israel is hoping will happen)

It is not what all of Israel wanted to happen. Sure there are a minority on the right who like to see Palestinians killing each other. But most Israeli wants a peaceful stable neighbour who they can do business with.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Or Iran and Egypt funneling weapons into Palestine.

Links please factual actual acounts only please thanks ...

Or Hamas refusing to recognize the right of Israel to exist.

in what manner define your terms...

as it stands you are asking for the right of palestine to be recognised as not exisiting should american recognise the right of the native american nations land to exist and therefore negate their own existance... would you support that MakeEveryActionReationaryShit.

Or the failure of the oil rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and UAE, flush with cash, but spending very little to help their brothers in Palestine.

or the even richer united states who has failed utterly to put right things in palestine or the other rich white nations of the world who have failed to help their brothers in palestine or is this a sand nigger only exclusive club MakeEveryActionReationaryShit?

Or the Lebanese who treat Palestinians like dirt, or Kuwait who kicked out thousands of Palestinians on the "charge" they helped Saddam in the first Gulf War.

so it is a snad nigger only club then ... you fucking waste of skin MakeEveryActionReationaryShit.

You act as though this sad situation is all the fault or Israel and their big bad friend the US.

erm the sitation is the fault of isreal if it wasn't there if it allowed funds which were legitiamtely collected as taxes to pay fo rthe services if it didn't steal land water subjigate and stur up not to mention create factions then palestinians wouldn't be suffering now...

you utter fuckin dick head...

Bullshit

is all you ever say ...

I'm up for startign a thread asking mears to be permenantly banned from the middle east forum on the grounds of his conitnue racsit diatribe and his obvious trolling tendancies anyone with me on this?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It is not what all of Israel wanted to happen. Sure there are a minority on the right who like to see Palestinians killing each other. But most Israeli wants a peaceful stable neighbour who they can do business with.

i'm sure that when isreal is mentioned it's being reffered to at a poltical level rather than as the entire populace and therfore yes this is exactly what isreal wanted...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or Iran and Egypt funneling weapons into Palestine. Or Hamas refusing to recognize the right of Israel to exist. Or the failure of the oil rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and UAE, flush with cash, but spending very little to help their brothers in Palestine. Or the Lebanese who treat Palestinians like dirt, or Kuwait who kicked out thousands of Palestinians on the "charge" they helped Saddam in the first Gulf War.

You act as though this sad situation is all the fault or Israel and their big bad friend the US.

Bullshit

Second only to their aid to Israel, your beloved administration pumps money into Egypt, so they're at least partially responsiblew for any weapons heading from the Nile to the Jordan, wouldn't you say?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Israel will survive for another 100 years at least IMO.

Israel will survive eternally.

The state of Israel may not.

 

[TomUS]

I can see all this shit leading to a partition of Palestine with Hamas controlling Gaza and Fatah controlling with West Bank. Might work out ok for the Palestinians in Gaza but it would be disastrous for the Palestinians in the West Bank (and is probably what Israel is hoping will happen)

I think it'll be far more disastrous for Gaza. I expect Gaza will become a Hamas dictatorship sinking deeper into poverty with Hamas being more isolated than ever. Fatah is more powerful in the WB & will get an infusion of aid and prosperity there will increase. I can't see how Hamas can survive in Gaza in the long run. But, for now there's a "Plaestinian State" there. A 3 state solution anyone?

Western powers rallied behind the Palestinian president on Friday after Hamas Islamists routed his forces in the Gaza Strip and began imposing a new order in the enclave after days of bloody civil war.

The United States and European Union as well as the United Nations and Russia -- the Quartet of Middle East mediators -- offered a "clear message of support" to Mahmoud Abbas, the secular president who named a new prime minister after firing the Hamas-led government and declaring a state of emergency.

Washington, Europe and Israel prepared to throw open the taps on financial aid to Abbas that was cut off a year ago when Iranian-backed Hamas used its popularity in impoverished Gaza to defeat Abbas's Fatah faction in a parliamentary election.

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/Ne...EWS-PALESTINIANS-COL.XML&pageNumber=1&summit=

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Israel will survive eternally.

The state of Israel may not.

i honestly hope that one day isrealis will accept the lines of the original partion plan and receed to these lines and that they and palestine will become a symbotic nations where their previous differences serve to strengthen each country and peoples to reach economic stablitiy and survival. I can't see anythign but this this happening eventually...

and given that this eventuality is inveivatable one has to wonder who exaclty it serves to resisit this and why they are preparred to pay the cost of some many lives in the mean time...

oh that'd be a short term game for some sponsor nation wouldn't it...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

speaking of sponsor nations and client states...

let's assume that iran syria and others are funding and arming palestinian militan groups. Let's assume that this is done to cause instability with in the middle east and is direct against their client states best intrests in both the long and the short term.

Is this is any way comparable tot he level of direct and indirect funding and armaments which isreal receives every eyars from the USA.

It's like saying hey they got a polo that means you should ignore the feast we have. they are equiverlent and totally comparible....

 

[mears]

Links please factual actual acounts only please thanks ...



in what manner define your terms...

as it stands you are asking for the right of palestine to be recognised as not exisiting should american recognise the right of the native american nations land to exist and therefore negate their own existance... would you support that MakeEveryActionReationaryShit.




or the even richer united states who has failed utterly to put right things in palestine or the other rich white nations of the world who have failed to help their brothers in palestine or is this a sand nigger only exclusive club MakeEveryActionReationaryShit?


so it is a snad nigger only club then ... you fucking waste of skin MakeEveryActionReationaryShit.



erm the sitation is the fault of isreal if it wasn't there if it allowed funds which were legitiamtely collected as taxes to pay fo rthe services if it didn't steal land water subjigate and stur up not to mention create factions then palestinians wouldn't be suffering now...

you utter fuckin dick head...





is all you ever say ...

I'm up for startign a thread asking mears to be permenantly banned from the middle east forum on the grounds of his conitnue racsit diatribe and his obvious trolling tendancies anyone with me on this?

http://www.thestar.com/article/189575

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3360122,00.html

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2463

"as it stands you are asking for the right of palestine to be recognised as not exisiting should american recognise the right of the native american nations land to exist and therefore negate their own existance... would you support that MakeEveryActionReationaryShit."

You need to speak in clear straightforward language if this is going to continue. I hope the above is the result of youth, or English as a second language, because its very bad writing. Probably you are just simply stupid.

"or the even richer united states who has failed utterly to put right things in palestine or the other rich white nations of the world who have failed to help their brothers in palestine or is this a sand nigger only exclusive club MakeEveryActionReationaryShit?"

What do you others think of this guy, is he 12?

 

[mears]

Second only to their aid to Israel, your beloved administration pumps money into Egypt, so they're at least partially responsiblew for any weapons heading from the Nile to the Jordan, wouldn't you say?

No they are not, the US doesn't force Egypt to spend their money on arms for Palestinians.

 

[mears]

speaking of sponsor nations and client states...

let's assume that iran syria and others are funding and arming palestinian militan groups. Let's assume that this is done to cause instability with in the middle east and is direct against their client states best intrests in both the long and the short term.

Is this is any way comparable tot he level of direct and indirect funding and armaments which isreal receives every eyars from the USA.

It's like saying hey they got a polo that means you should ignore the feast we have. they are equiverlent and totally comparible....

Now go back and read that last paragraph, you are bordering on illiteracy. You should try to pick it up.

But yes, there are many at fault for this debacle in Palestine. The Palestinians, the west, Israel and the aforementioned Syria and Iran. Maybe in your slow, dim witted way you are picking it up.

 

[teqniq]

mears: Garfield's dyslexic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No they are not, the US doesn't force Egypt to spend their money on arms for Palestinians.

I never claimed they did.

they do, however, continue supporting them through thick and thin.

Geo-strategic concerns, don't you know.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now go back and read that last paragraph, you are bordering on illiteracy. You should try to pick it up.

But yes, there are many at fault for this debacle in Palestine. The Palestinians, the west, Israel and the aforementioned Syria and Iran. Maybe in your slow, dim witted way you are picking it up.

For someone so poorly versed in understanding foreign policy, you're a patronising little dicksplash, aren't you?

 

[moono]

teqniq;

mears: Garfield's dyslexic.

teqniq: mears is myopic.

 

[mears]

I never claimed they did.

they do, however, continue supporting them through thick and thin.

Geo-strategic concerns, don't you know.

So they US should not support Egypt. What countries in the ME deserve the support of the US and the west in general?

 

[david dissadent]

This is Shin Bets finest hour and the best news the Likudnik-Irgunites* have had since Begum became prime minister. Not what they planned but plans have to be adapted. The Palastinians are cut in two ungovernable and ostracised by every Arab government except perhaps Sudan (if they count).

Hamas was tollerated or even encouraged in its nacent form by Israel as a counter to the PLO. The PLO as secularists had all the right qualities to appeal to the Soviets and many western leftists. They could have grown into an orginisation with the kind of kudos of the ANC. By turning them further away from violence they could have won the worlds sympathy and aid, while being welcome in secular Arab capitals as a cheap and easy piece of propoganda. Off course that was potential and the world changed.

But Hamas use to the Israeli right altered but did not dimish. They became a source of friction and division within the occupied territories and feared by Arab leaders outside of them.

The vicotry of violent Islamists will not go down well in any Arab capital. All of them will want Hamas broken.

Shin Bet has had a hand in turning the Arab leaders against the new leaders of many of the Palastinians. A bitter and phyrric victory for the 'friends' of the Palastinians on this forum (the ones who would not give a shit about them if it was not Jews who were doing the killing).


*In Nothern Ireland Unionists always say Sine Fien/ IRA to remind people of who they believe they really are. Perhaps if I should adopt Likud-Irgun for the same reason.

 

[david dissadent]

So they US should not support Egypt. What countries in the ME deserve the support of the US and the west in general?

None, but the people of the middle east deserve all the help we can muster. Aid for farms, factories and trade agreements, less F-16's and security training.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So they US should not support Egypt.

Dont put words in my mouth.

What countries in the ME deserve the support of the US and the west in general?

That depends on what you mean by "support".
I'm almost certain that given your sub-Randian turn of thought, you see support simply as leverage.

 

[mears]

Dont put words in my mouth.

That depends on what you mean by "support".
I'm almost certain that given your sub-Randian turn of thought, you see support simply as leverage.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, speak your opinion. Should they or should they not? Fine I will give you my opinion. Egypt is the lesser of some evils in the region, if you want me to expand on the "evils" later please do tell.

Egypt is more secular and more open than other countries in the region. The government doesn't go on about apocalypse and destroying Israel. So yes, I do think they warrant our financial support. But if Mubarek puts his son in charge, if it turns into another Syria or Saudi Arabia than fuck them.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Egypt is more secular and more open than other countries in the region. The government doesn't go on about apocalypse and destroying Israel. So yes, I do think they warrant our financial support. But if Mubarek puts his son in charge, if it turns into another Syria or Saudi Arabia than fuck them.

Actually, Syria is the better of the three - just ask any woman who has visited Egypt, Saudi and Syria which she prefers, and she'll say Syria every time.

No they are not, the US doesn't force Egypt to spend their money on arms for Palestinians.

It's the Christian Right in USA, supported unequivovably by the Bush administration, who have, with a small number of Judeo-Christian coalition Israeli rightwing 'powerbrokers' (a minority with a majority of powers), formented this civil war in Gaza. The general Israeli public were wholly against the US arming of Fatah, as any reading of Ynet and Ha'aretz from May will testify.

AMY GOODMAN: Ali Abunimah, can you describe who is arming both sides, Fatah and Hamas?

ALI ABUNIMAH: Yes. What we've seen is really a direct result of the Bush doctrine. Since January 2006 when Hamas won the legislative election fair and square, the United States refused the election result and it has been arming several Palestinian militias, particularly those controlled by the Gaza warlord, Mohammed Declan. This is a repeat strategy of the contras. These are Palestinian contras. And the architect of this policy is none other than Elliott Abrams, the deputy national security advisor, who was convicted for lying to congress in the Iran-contra scandal. And Alvaro de Soto, the UN Reporter that you mentioned in the introduction, Amy, confirms in detail the extent of the conspiracy that the United States has been undertaking to overthrow the election result and destroy Hamas. And just a few days before this round of fighting started on June 7, Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper reported that senior Fatah commanders in the Gaza Strip had asked Israel for millions of rounds of ammunition, RPG's, hand grenades and armored cars to use against Hamas. So I think what we've seen is Hamas taking a last resort move to put an end to what it describes as a coup intended to overthrow the election result. It's a major blow for the United States and for the Bush doctrine, although it's very hard to see how it helps Palestinians very much considering that Israel and the United States are likely to tighten the siege of Gaza and to continue to fund the militias. We've already seen Condoleezza Rice throwing her support behind Abbas and no sign of a letup in US interference and armed intervention in Palestinian affairs.

AMY GOODMAN: How did the weapons get to both sides? And does that aid that Condoleezza Rice is talking about include weapons?

ALI ABUNIMAH: Yes. The weapons that have been delivered to the Fatah militias to the Palestinian contras of Mohammed Declan, come via Egypt and are delivered with the direct coordination of Israel. The Fatah commanders make requests to Israel and Israel coordinates the delivery of the weapons to Egypt. Hamas gets its weapons. There are reports that Hamas receives funding from Iran. Hamas also gets weapons from Egypt. What's notable is that many of the weapons that Israel delivers to Fatah for use against Hamas are then sold on by corrupt Fatah commanders to the highest bidders, so recently Israel has been actually turning down Fatah requests for weapons because they say to the Fatah commanders you just turn around and sell the weapons to Hamas. So Gaza is absolutely awash with weapons and nobody seems to have any difficulty getting hold of them.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/15/1428213

MAX BLUMENTHAL: Well, this nomination is another sop to the Christian Right. They're trying to get their base revved up. I subscribe to various Christian Right newsletters and they're just bombarding me with e-mails and newsletters saying this is another case of religious bigotry by the Democrats. They're forcing Dr. Holsinger to check his Christianity at the door. So even if his nomination fails they've gotten the base revved up, they’ve gotten the Christian Right interested again. The Christian Right essentially controls this administration so they're doing lot of damage in the process by nominating someone to a scientific institution who's hostile to science. [...] think Dr. Holsinger might argue that he can hold these views about homosexuals and still be qualified for Surgeon-General. But he can't argue that he doesn't believe in science. And that's just on the record. It's established if you believe in ex-gay therapy, which he does, if you believe you can pray away the gay, which he does, you are rejecting 30 years of science. The American Psychiatric Association, the largest association of mental health professionals, has stopped listing homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1974. They have contributed to virtually every Surgeon-General's annual report. So he's rejecting the mental health community right there. And this reflects a larger trend in the administration of hostility to science. You have the NASA chief, Michael Griffin who doesn't believe global warming exists. You have the former chair of the President's council on bioethics which rubber stamped his veto of stem cell science. Leon Kass who says that women’s natural function in life is to have children. And he's spoken out most fervently against what he sees is one of the biggest social evils, the public licking of ice cream cones. Another member of the president’s council of bioethics, Robert George who I’ve profiled for The Nation, wants laws enacted to ban masturbation which would sort of create a vicious cycle once you throw people in prison for that because there's nothing else to do. Robert Brame, nominated for the national labor relations board, believes that homosexuals, abortion doctors and disobedient children should be executed according to biblical law. Joe McIlhaney, former co-chair of the president’s advisory council on AIDs, still a member, believes AIDs can be spread by sweat and tears. Current co-chair Senator Coburn, anti-condemn activist. His chief of staff told me at a right winged conference I was covering that he thinks liberal federal judges should not only be impeached but impailed as well. So you have in charge of scientific institutions sexual troglodytes who might be qualified to administer tribal regions in Pakistan but they are just not qualified to be in charge of these institutions. So I think the nightmare isn't over. We have one year left but the administration continues throwing these sops to the base. You saw in your last segment how they fomented a civil crisis in Gaza, well they fomented a culture war at home.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/15/1428217

And still no concrete aid from this administration to New Orleans. Of course, would there be any, considering the Christian right in USA believe that NO was "purged" in 'G-d's judgement' for various 'sins'. This is the same Christian right who believes that Jews must ingather in Israel before being subjected to "Holocaust II: The Rapture", where only a small number of Jews who converted to Christianity will be saved by G-d in a forthcoming "Armageddon" in a battle they're contrstucting between Jews and Muslims.

The people who talk most about killing Jews in Israel are actually this Christian Right-wing in USA - the Dominionists, the Rapturists, the End Timers. It's time the "West" woke up to this reality, and stopped assisting these US-originating religious bigots from the Bush Administration and the Pentecostagon.

Further Reading
2005: http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/11/29/foxman/index.html (Christian Right courted Jews, but is the honeymoon over?)
2006: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/aipac-cheers-an-antisemi_b_43377.html (Cracking article which explains the ideology behind US Christian Right support for Israeli hardliners)
2007: http://www.jewsonfirst.org/07b/yoffie.html (Leader of Reform Judiasm discourages cooperation with Christians United for Israel)

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, speak your opinion. Should they or should they not? Fine I will give you my opinion. Egypt is the lesser of some evils in the region, if you want me to expand on the "evils" later please do tell.

Egypt is more secular and more open than other countries in the region. The government doesn't go on about apocalypse and destroying Israel. So yes, I do think they warrant our financial support. But if Mubarek puts his son in charge, if it turns into another Syria or Saudi Arabia than fuck them.

Er, Egypt is a military dictatorship that has the veneer of 'democracy'. Dissent is strictly forbidden and the press is heavily censored.

The US also outsources its torture to Egypt, perhaps this is why you say the things you do.

 

[PartTimePongo]

Er, Egypt is a military dictatorship that has the veneer of 'democracy'. Dissent is strictly forbidden and the press is heavily censored.

The US also outsources its torture to Egypt, perhaps this is why you say the things you do.

You whinge like a kid at the US & Egypt yet your mouth stays shut when hamas murder and toss people off tower blocks. Silly me I forgot whatever terrorists do is OK by you.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Oh, I know who you are. Banned again.

 

[laptop]

On the differences between the demand to "recognise Israel's existence" (a fact) and "recognise Israel's right to exist" ("so stealing my granddad's land was right?"):

What 'Israel's right to exist' means to Palestinians

Recognition would imply acceptance that they deserve to be treated as subhumans.

By John V. Whitbeck

...
From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0202/p09s02-coop.html

I seem to recall that there was another essay which may have been the source of this, possibly by an Egyptian academic... clues, anyone?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh, I know who you are. Banned again.

Which one?

Not tat I keep a list of trolls and their aliases, like. That would be weird and obsessive, wouldn't it?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Our Phalangist friend again, unless I'm much mistaken. I lose track of what his first ever name was....