lets see how well London functions without the goods provided by people who actually make things
We'd import them, just as we do now
Break up of the UK?
- Thread starter TomPaine
- Start date
We'd import them, just as we do now
Out of interest where do people stand here on the subject of the UK splitting up?
Personally I consider myself English rather then British and would prefer to see England at the very least devolved, but one step better and to dissolve the act of Union.
I think the end of the act of the Union could also be a great way overhaul the state, and remove the entrentched British establishment (maybe wishful thinking).
What about you folks?
English or British? its just a name . Im confident so dont need a name to define me
Does seem a bit daft to have the current situation where by Scottish MP's can vote on issues that have no impact on their own constituents and if Scotland has its own parliament and legal system then I see no real reason to keep us linked together.
Wales strikes me as a slightly different thing in that a lot of its populace dont seem that keen on being fully independant but if that were to change, then no great loss.
Wales strikes me as a slightly different thing in that a lot of its populace dont seem that keen on being fully independant but if that were to change, then no great loss.
Its good that you are a spokes man for the english ,scots, and welsh
What would they do without you?
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
And Irish absentee-landlords played no part in this "massacre"?
More to the point, when was it the policy of the British government to "massacre" the "sons and daughters" of Ireland? The potato famine was an Act of God exacerbated horribly by brutal adherence to free market dogma. Intentional genocide? No.
London imposed its will by force, and with much lawlessness and brutality. That's brutal, but not in the same degree as the pesudo-genocide you seem to be suggesting.
There was a brief window in the late 19th century where Home Rule of a unified Ireland within the British Empire was a real possibility. Sadly Gladsone's brusqueness and Parnell's wandering ... attentions helped put paid to it. Given what's happened in Ireland since, I don't think that alternative is such a wicked notion.
Europe isn't colonisng us; it's just condemning us to rule of the beauacrats. Not a wonderful alternative.
As for this alleged colonisation of the "Celtic peoples", England's planting of settlers in Ireland is well known and not in dispute. Whether it's some bizarre racial enterprise, or a cold, hard attempt to control "England's back door", is a matter of debate. But when has England "colonised" Scotland? For that matter, where does Scottish invasions and massacres in Ireland fit into this analysis?
The British government is currently falling over itself to be respectful of Welsh and Scottish culture. Well fair enough, but hardly indicative of an entity unable to change. Europe will leave our culture alone, so long as it doesn't conflict with social democracy, but strips us of our political independence. Which again, isn't conducive to our cultural independence in the longrun.
Ireland isn't so enthusiastically EU as you're pretending: not if its habit of rejecting EU proposals in referenda is anything to go by. It's a common law island nation: if over a century of needless brutality hadn't intervened, Britain and Ireland could have a great deal in common. It's likely too late now, but it's sad to reflect on what might have been.
It isn't too late to stop a disasterous split between England and the Scots.
I also have to take issue with this. The Scottish also had a very big hand in the events that took place in Ulster and the Plantations. King James had a big hand in it, with at least half the planters being Scots (although I believe lowland). All of this is also ironic considering that Northern Ulster originally gave birth to kingdom of Dal Riada which saw the Gaelic peoples invade the West coast of what is now Scotland.. but anyway I digress.
Some of the "celtic" chippyness is a bit silly really.
I have no time for the British establishment and would prefer to see England get out on the Union and move forward as a nation rather then be saddled with establishment twats like Cameron and his ilk.
I think England has a far better chance of building real ties that matter with it's neighbours and other nations around the world when we actually start to build a decent nation with local democracy, not this shitty sham that exists at the moment with a bunch of bickering thieves arguing over who gets to waste tax money on their next shitty project/war/branding exercise/EU spunk fest/friendly dictator....
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
I guess Scottish planters would come under my comment about Scottish invasions, but interesting paragraph. James VI was a slimey one alright.
The point is that most nation states are beastly on occasion, because people are beastly on occasion: historical one-upmanship is silly and futile. (And if we're doing this, should Ireland hate the EU because Continental mercenaries fought the Battle of the Boyne?)
What counts is what's best for Britain now. Any voluntary re-incorporation of Ireland to the Union is fantasy; but we've got the chance to avoid making some of the same mistakes with Scotland. Both nations should take it.
Gary Bushell really turned me against regional nationalism when he started campaigning for an independant English state. He made it seem so parochial. On the other hand I think that Wales and Northern Ireland in particular suffer from being perceived as conquered nations. In terms of status, they are still seen as the underdogs but independence in Scotland had almost eradicated this for the Scots.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Asymmetric devolution has caused problems in Westminister. London has devolved powers Liverpool doesn't have, Wales has devolved powers Northern Ireland doesn't have, Scotland has devolved powers Wales doesn't have. etc.
The situation we have now is that a Scottish Westminster MP has no influence over health, education, agriculture, fisheries and forestry, economic development, environment, criminal justice system and so on, in his/her own constituency, but can influence those issues in England. Similarly, London has the Mayor and assembly, and therefore London MPs can't affect the devolved London issues, but can cast votes in Westminster that'll affect the rest of the country safe in the knowledge that their constituents will not be affected. And so on.
Some people have suggested MPs don't vote on issues that are devolved in their part of the UK. So London MPs, Welsh MPs, Scottish MPs, Northern Irish MPs would all be differentially abstaining as appropriate when legislation was going through Westminster.
It's a mess.
The two logical solutions are a federal UK, or independence for the constituent countries.
The situation we have now is that a Scottish Westminster MP has no influence over health, education, agriculture, fisheries and forestry, economic development, environment, criminal justice system and so on, in his/her own constituency, but can influence those issues in England. Similarly, London has the Mayor and assembly, and therefore London MPs can't affect the devolved London issues, but can cast votes in Westminster that'll affect the rest of the country safe in the knowledge that their constituents will not be affected. And so on.
Some people have suggested MPs don't vote on issues that are devolved in their part of the UK. So London MPs, Welsh MPs, Scottish MPs, Northern Irish MPs would all be differentially abstaining as appropriate when legislation was going through Westminster.
It's a mess.
The two logical solutions are a federal UK, or independence for the constituent countries.
As a Midlander I can you tell for a fact that Birmingham is indeed the shithole that non-Midlanders think it is.
As are all of the post-industrial concrete wastelands that cover the West Midlands.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
This attitude is partly what got the UK into the shite it's in now. Guess what you could have all the money in the world but if no-one will sell you food, fuel, clothes, etc WTF are you going to do with that money??
Coz there's loads of farms in London to feed folk, loads of fuel to heat homes, etc
Atm I would be happy enough with a split UK.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I'm sorry but your analysis is blinkered. Where in the UK are you based?
The British Govt is not falling over itself to be respectful of Welsh culture at all. The governing party in the UK (Labour) voted against the Welsh language having official status in the European Parliament. In fact, Gordon Brown is promoting 'Britishness' which overrules Welsh and Scottish culture. He is for example trying to undermine our national football teams by forming a UK team. I know it's only football, but still. Legislatively, the UK govt is undermining the Welsh and Scottish governments, in Wales on the housing issue and in Scotland by trying to block the Scottish Government from developing an alternative to PFI.
What about Wales' political independence?
Also it might be news to you Great Britain isn't a nation it is a union of three constituent nations and one part of Ireland.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
It certainly is a mess and mainly to England's disadvantage. What continues to baffle me is English people's apathy to it. It's funny in a way because it's to some extent England's disinterest in the other parts of the UK which led to those other parts calling for devolution.
Mostly when I hear English people calling for English independence (not very often) or having a general grumble (more often) they are going on about how they are subsidising Scotland. Which is debateable but even if true, if you carry that logic through, really the southeast should be calling for independence, or london as mentioned further up the thread.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
believe it or not trev theres plenty of southern underclass who sooner eat their own genitals without salt than vote Tory
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Did they? I can find some articles about Mr Brown dithering, but not trying to block the proposals. And I don't know his motives over this: are there cost implications?
Labour has given Wales an assembly that is funding Welsh language projects. The Scotish Parliament has everything published not only in Gaelic but in "Scots". Last time I was in Wales all the signs (even the road markings) were bi-lingual.
As for Wales' independence, is there even a majority for it in Wales? Wales doesn't have its own legal system, as does Scotland. As a practical matter, independence would be harder. And I imagine Wales might miss British taxpayers' money. (As might the Scots.)
It clearly isn't "news to me" the the United Kingdom is a union of four constituent nations. Once the ghastly Labour party are out of office, there's a good practical case for switching to some kind of federal system, which would combine the benefits of independence and Union. Breaking up within the EU just swaps Westminster for Brussels, hardly progress or a principled move to independence.
I'm in London, which should declare independence forthwith.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Why 'must' it endure?
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
For all the reasons I've given above, which boil down to standing up to the EU. England, Scotland and Wales are going to find this a lot harder as seperate nations. (Northern Ireland I'll leave aside as the situation is a mess, and it's probably heading for unification with the Republic whatever anyone does.) The nations won't be "independent", they'll swap one central administration for another, far less democratic version. I also believe that we benefit from each other's cultures and traditions. (Well, the more positive ones, anyhow.)
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
But none of the above are a reason that the union 'must endure' which is an idiotic remark in any case given you would also use it even if it were to the detriment of all the component parts. That you have even acceeded that the 6 Counties will be 'lost' weakens even further your absolutist remark. Surely the case is whether it is economically, politically, socially and culturally beneficial? As a socialist i'm agnostic on the issue. If the break-up of the union strengthens working-class politics and organisation then i'm for it. If not then why bother.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
How do you figure that? If I believe the Union was no longer beneficial, I wouldn't support it. "Must" is simply expressing my strong belief that, under current circumstances, the Union should go on because it's "economically, politically, socially and culturally beneficial". It's not some abstract point of principle.
It's depressing that hardly anyone bothers to defend the Union. Scotland has a lot of misty eyed talk of independence; England has a lot of blimpish nonsense; and both make rude jokes about the other that are notably lacking in affection. Wales is probably going to go the way of Scotland if it gets its own parliament and legal system.
Northern Ireland's absorption into the Republic seems inevitable, so I won't argue that one. That doesn't diminish the case for a union of the remaining three nations.
The most frustrating part of the "debate" is that the reality of "independence" -- absorption into a European superstate -- makes a mockery off all the rhetoric about little nations shaking off the shackles of nasty, bullying England.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Well don't use such stupid terms as 'must endure' then, pretty simple really.
it is still beneficial to major Scottish banks that's for sure. But for Scottish soldiers dying in needless wars? It's simply a case of how it affects working-class politics for me. Many on the Left up here argue that Independence is a positive stepping stone, i'm not convinced. That doesn't however mean i'm 'pro-Union'. I'm simply not convinced that a Socttish boss is somehow more acceptable/progressive than a 'British' boss.
There isn't much 'pargmatism' unionism up here amongst the bourgeouis parties, you're withr for or against it on principle the end. There's no 'pragmatic unionism', unionism up here is dominated by either the likes of the Scottish Labour party or those of an 'orange' hue who whip up bigotry beneath the guise of defending the union. Neither serving or even claiming to serve working-class interests. But then neither do the likes of Alex Salmond and his pals in the Scottish Government.
i'm think of myself as welsh ( though i think it is all bullshit ) and i think ^^^ this is rubbish .. i'm all for federation of regions but nationalism is very dodgy .. the benefits could be lost in a reaction in days .. just remember the balkans .. we should be fighting for human autonomy .. maybe then we would be happy to just be humans rather than being welsh or english or scottish .. nationalism is a false identity whihc i would have hoped we would have gone beyond by now .. sadly it seems not
btw do you have a route for the motorway the nats want to drive from wrecsam to the south?
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
If class solidarity is your priority, then that's sensible enough. Scotland will be in the EU whatever the case, with the same increasing labour regulations, so I can see little practical difference.
If, however, we're to have a chance of regaining genuine national independence, then Scotland would have more chance of going it alone if allied to England and Wales, and would hold a lot more sway as an equal partner in an independent Union than one of 30 odd EU member states.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
We could take this a step or two further ...
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=276343
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=276343
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
The citizens of Gunthergrad have no need for the EU, we have exactly the right amount of turnips ...
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Well, except a more logical city state would be London and the south east. I know we've got as long way divorced from sustainable food production, but it would make economic sense for at least some food production to be within the immediate vicinity of the city. (It's not so long - 100 years - since more than half of the food consumed in New York was produced within New York State, for example).
In my view, the break up of the British State would be a positive step. I fully take Fed's point about whether a Scottish boss is better than a British boss, but the world I want to see is a federation of regions, each with real local control; preferably some form of direct democracy. I know that's a long, long way off, but anything that weans us off big nation-states has to be a step in the right direction.
I'm not interested in old nations being replaced by new nationalisms, though, and regionalisation would need to be based on democratic units, rather than spurious identities.
That said, if there was a referendum for Scottish independence tomorrow, I'd vote yes, because given the choice between British nationalism and Scottish nationalism, I'll take the smaller bloc, with the levers of power a step more local.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
i'm think of myself as welsh ( though i think it is all bullshit ) and i think ^^^ this is rubbish .. i'm all for federation of regions but nationalism is very dodgy .. the benefits could be lost in a reaction in days .. just remember the balkans .. we should be fighting for human autonomy .. maybe then we would be happy to just be humans rather than being welsh or english or scottish .. nationalism is a false identity whihc i would have hoped we would have gone beyond by now .. sadly it seems not
btw do you have a route for the motorway the nats want to drive from wrecsam to the south?
I'm curious of your Welsh credentials if you think nationalism here is anything like 'the Balkans'. What a stupid thing to say. The only other person i've heard say that is Peter Hain.
I'm all for a federation of nations on the Latin American integration-style model, but where countries share what they can on a basis of solidarity. Neither the EU or the UK meet those expectations obviously (and neither ever will, most probably), but the EU is generally better than the UK in terms of human rights and workers rights. I don't see how a hypothetically independent Wales or Scotland would be any more ruled by the EU than they are now. Wales & Scotland are already part of the EU. EU legislation already affects us and they our poorest regions. I don't think we would be any more absorbed than we are currently. Contrastingly, Wales actually becoming a recognised nation has occured at the same time as EU expansion. Our nationhood has become more pronounced by having a closer relationship with the EU, not less pronounced. Of course though, the EU is reactionary and right-wing in many parts of its agenda and this has to be challenged.
My nationalism is far from misty-eyed or myth-based, it is purely evidence-based in that socialist parties are the most popular in Wales and politics in Wales is more progressive than the British level. That said, the ruling parties in Wales although generally sound and taking Wales in the right direction, have made some glaring errors this year and last year and have failed to resist a number of the UK government's reactionary measures.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Bring it on I say.
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