Discussion in 'suburban75' started by miss minnie, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    Happy with both the lip and the rise on this. It's 100% Yorkshire Organic (with honey and olive oil), which I've always struggled to get to behave entirely cleanly. The lip is unusually tidy, though - and it only broke / went uneven at the very back (I'm well happy with the smoothness of the split *until* that final breakaway). Looks like the smaller slashes could've gone deeper (hence the small tear across them), but I was kinda expecting much less of a rise. All round, happy with that.

    IMG_0606.JPG IMG_0607.JPG IMG_0609.JPG
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
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  2. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    Also made a crystallised stem ginger and mixed peel loaf yesterday. Fully expected it to be a catastrophe - id wanted to find some dried pear, but kinda struggled to justify the overall cost (£3 on pear, £2-3 on ginger = an ouchy loaf, particularly as most is always given away). The ginger was also properly fierce - small nugget = full on burn.

    Worked out remarkably well tho. Soaked the fruit beforehand, perhaps that took away some of the bite. Disappeared at a rate of knots at work yesterday, and I've just had another large toasted buttered slab for breakfast. One of my better tasting loaves (20% light rye, Yorkshire organic).
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  3. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    No, that's kind of the point. I did an all white sough dough, which was the normal sticky I get. I then I kept the hydration the same, but used yeast rather then a starter and got stuff I could work with. Made a freestanding loaf. Downside is it just lacked the taste that sough dough does.

    I need a better tool for slashes on pure white. The stuff just seems to self heal.
  4. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    Shapes look amazing and after forming my own with the yeasted bake, rather then throwing it all in a tin like with my sticky sough dough, I've an even greater respect. You do like a serious crust though!
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  5. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    After thinking about this in the shower, I'm no longer surprised. My starter is 45% hydration (well, 160 water to 200 flour) but I don't believe I could knead it - a 70% loaf is considerably better behaved by the time it's being shaped, etc.

    Also, bakers lames are pretty cheap, use disposable razors, and are well worth it. Flouting or oiling before slash can also help get a clean line (though that doesn't sound like your problem - which sounds more structural, unless you're at crazy high hydration / overproofed).
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  6. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    ty! It's seriously nothing but folding during the bulk proof + pre-shaping though.

    And re: crust, not much choice with a 2kg loaf. I stop when the innards are hot enough (probe thermometer). If the oven's any lower, it dries out. And takes forever.

    The smaller loaves often surprise me by how much lighter they are.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
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  7. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    So where does your stand mixer come in? Do you get the magic gluten window by kneed in at this point?

    What I've been do is to take a teaspoon of my by now rather unknown starter and mix a fresh one at 100% hydration and leave overnight. Still playing with ratio, but will make a 5th to 3rd of the final loaf. Taking into account the starter with the final ratios. Been going for between 60 to 65% hydration.

    I guess I can play with lots of oil to handle this and fold and fold, but just such a messy process that I wanted to tick other stuff off first.

    Anyway this is one I'm not playing with to much. Wholemeal Rye, Strong Brown and a bit of white.


    Will look out for a lame then when placing an order online next.
  8. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    This is also slightly bothering me..

    I decided to refresh my starter yesterday, chucked it all away bar 2 teaspoons full. Made up 2 mixs of white and water at a 100%. One in a small bowl for a loaf later. It did its thing, bubbled and doubled in size. The other I put in a jar, similar to how I've been keeping my starter. In the same time it looked consistently less healthy and had started to seperate. Which I often see on my main starter. Are jars a shit thing to keep them in?
  9. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    I would call 60-65% hydration pretty low. 70% is my starting point, I usually slop it up to 72%, and occasionally I'll wobble up to 75.

    Then again, I don't take the starter's hydration into account. And that's 300g.

    So, Christ...
    160/360*300 =133mls + 720mls = 855;
    200/360*300 = 167g +1000 = 1167.

    = 855/1165=73%? That can't be right. How the fuck is adding 45% starter to a 72% mix increasing hydration?!

    Edit: oh. By increasing the water, proportionally, more than the flour. In absolute terms. I suppose. That's an extra 18.5% water, but only an extra 16.7% flour...?
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  10. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    No. Mine lives in an airtight Tupperware.

    Differences in temp?

    Idk dude. Your starter management is very different from how I run mine, so I'm out of my depth there :thumbs:
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  11. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    I know. I've been earing on the low side to try and get doughs I can work with. I'm obviously doing something wrong and I've read lots of different ways of doing it, but I'm buggered if I can work it out why the dough changes so dramatically. Still if it's just going in a tin I guess I can try upping the hydration.
  12. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    I'm willing to change anything at this point. It sounds like yours is more like a bit of dough. How do you refresh it?
  13. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    I aren't bothered by gluten windows tbh. By the time it comes out of the mixer, the dough is only part of the way towards its end point.

    Mix starter, water, flour together. Leave for half an hour (or more). Mix for, idk, 5 mins? Put in oiled box. Fold (pull out a bit from the edge, pin it to the middle, go all the way around once or twice depending on elastic resistance). Leave a bit. Fold. Leave a bit. Fold. Leave a bit. Fold. Leave a bit. Pre-shape on floured surface. Leave a bit. Pre-shape. Banneton.

    After the first couple of oiled bucket folds, the gluten / structure should really begin to be a different beast. By the final one, a high gluten flour should be pinging back / resisting / holding its shape pretty well.

    The oiled bucket onwards is really where I expect gluten to take shape.
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  14. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    160mls water, 200g flour, in the same Tupperware every time it's used. 300g per kg of flour = 5 loaves makes a spare loaf in surplus starter.

    It's used daily, or nearly daily; this does affect its state, and probably affects the viability of how it's treated / used.
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  15. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    Just to add, at 60-65% I'd sort of expect all those in-bucket folds to be pretty difficult, or to tear the loaf. May need longer to relax between folds, too.

    I wouldn't have any concern about handling the dough you've posted a picture of - bit of light rye on a surface and quick hands (slow hands are death for sticky dough) and that should be utterly manageable. Likewise, in an oiled bucket. (Bit of oil on your fingers = no trouble.

    As I posted that, I'm remembering the baking course I went on, with the baker saying we'd find it rayt difficult to handle the dough the way he was. Bc he was practised. Using a dough scraper in one hand (scooping under / shaping unwieldy dough) was one of his suggestions. Speed was the other.
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  16. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    Ah. A tin. I really like that idea. Don't know why I didn't think of it. Between of bowl which doesn't have the space and a board which is a faf just having out. Means I might have to buy some biscuits. And eat them. Or go shopping on Amazon again. :D

    I'm away a fair bit, but yeah, I'll certainly give that a go as I'm at home a bit more now. Much lower hydration then mine. So you just use 50g of starter for your huge 2 kg loaves?

    I left that dough overnight to ferment and just dumped it in a loaf tin where it's rising at the moment. Not expecting it to be massively light, but my other half quite likes these ones and I've done a fair few pure white recently.
  17. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    Oh and thanks again for taking the time to talk me through all your stages!
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  18. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    300 starter, 720 water, 1kg flour :thumbs:

    200 flour + 160 water per feed = 360. So 60g spare per feed. 60*5 loaves = a second / additional loaf every five days or so.
  19. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    My proving bucket was a £3-4 plastic storage tub from b&q. With lid. Fwiw.

    Works fine. Makes sense to go big - gives space to pinch the edges in / work the dough. I barely ever use the two smaller ones I have (in principle, each big enough for a 1kg loaf. It just gets too cramped in there.)
  20. pug

    pug Well-Known Member

    this is my effort from yesterday, a slashing fail, yeast risen I'm happy with it but still need to master getting the crust right.
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  21. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    I had dropped an autolysed splooge into the mixer for its knead, when it all felt a bit mainstream. Same white loaf as yesterday, basically.

    So I dropped half a pint of treacle in, googled "bread treacle," found a suggestion for a treacle and oat soda loaf, soaked some spelt berries and oats, and dropped them in there.

    I'm expecting an unreserved catastrophe. Though it is, tbf, within 90 degrees of being an unbelievably lazy, unworked, and suspiciously light pumpernickel.


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  22. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    Here's this evening's dough ball, fresh out of the oiled tub, and post pre-shape, fwiw.

    IMG_0617.JPG IMG_0618.JPG

    This is a wet loaf. I have no idea how wet, because #treacle. And there's no pic of the second pre-shape, bc at that point, the loaf had to be hurried into a banneton before it became part of the worktop. And I fully expect it to have *very little height* once baked.

    But... handling and folding isn't an issue here. Nor is shaping (unless I want to move it somewhere. Hence the banneton thing).
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  23. RubyToogood

    RubyToogood can't remember what goes here

    Interesting. 75% hydration is about as low as I go, usually more like 80%. But then I don't knead it and it doesn't have to hold its shape on a baking sheet.
  24. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    That's magic in action mrs quoad. Now I know that's possible I shall persist. :cool:

    When you say autolyse do you mean before or after the starter is added?

    Do you dump yours in a tin as well RubyToogood?

    Anyway this arrived for me today. :D

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  25. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    Had my first true loaf fail yesterday. My oven thermometer has died after falling into a pan of hot oil. Anyway that rye combo loaf was looking very black on top so pulled it out. Disintegrated coming out the loaf tin, bits of it were still doughy inside. The stuff near the crusts tasted awesome though!
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  26. RubyToogood

    RubyToogood can't remember what goes here

    I only ever do the low effort, no knead method, so it goes into a cast iron casserole dish with a lid. I have no idea what you and quoadie are talking about half the time!
  27. UnderAnOpenSky

    UnderAnOpenSky baseline neural therapy

    Baking with yeast today as I need bread that's just ready after yesterdays disaster. A mostly white with a bit of rye for flavor and good dollop of starter in as well as yeast, so hopefully it still has some tang, even if the commercial yeast does most of the work.

    Also doing pizza dough, gone up to 72% hydration. Looks glossy and amazing, but I'm a little nervous of working with it and getting it in to the oven. Ah well if you don't try these things, you never learn.
  28. friedaweed

    friedaweed Sitting down for a wee


    My 3rd attempt. First two were lovely but not as pretty as this little beauty.

    I purchased the starter from ebay. Suposedly a 30 yr old Cumbrian starter. It's very active. We called it 'The Blob' :D

    So far I've made a wholemeal one, a rye one and this one which was 400g Strong white and 80g splelt and 120g Rye starter. Water, salt and love.

    Can't wait fo taste it :)
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  29. friedaweed

    friedaweed Sitting down for a wee

    I did the cast iron pot method for the one above. Really impressed at how easy it is.:thumbs:
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  30. mrs quoad

    mrs quoad Well-Known Member

    After a series of increasingly fucked up loaves, a vanilla and treacle loaf is looking inevitable at some point in the next few days.
    UnderAnOpenSky likes this.

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