Boycotting Israel as a route to peace.

[ViolentPanda]

My point exactly... a boycott is not an adequate form of force.

Your point is, as has been the case with your "points" throughout this thread, bollocks.
Iraq wasn't boycotted, as I stated in the post of mine you quoted in your reply, it was sanctioned.
Do at least please make a pretence of knowing what you're talking about.

 

[phildwyer]

Iraq wasn't boycotted, as I stated in the post of mine you quoted in your reply, it was sanctioned.

No, it was not sanctioned. It had sanctions imposed upon it. Please be more accurate in your usage.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, it was not sanctioned. It had sanctions imposed upon it. Please be more accurate in your usage.

To be sanctioned can mean either that one is granted permission or that one is punished. I'd have thought that an Americaphile such as yourself would have known that.

Reduced to pedantry now, my little troglodyte?

How very sad.

 

[moono]

I do enjoy a good semantic collision. Reminds me of Resolution 242.

 

[ymu]

Can anyone please direct me to per capita ratio statistics of terrorists from Palestine of both Christian and Islamic backrounds? I had a website which did, it's just one of the few reasons I have little tolerance for organised religons which inspire such violence.

No sources, sorry. But the Tamil Tigers started using suicide bombers 20 years before Hamas, who adopted the tactic in response to the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre, carried out by Baruch Goldstein.

The Tamil Tigers are a broad grouping including Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists, often targeting Muslims with their attacks. I'm sure they got the idea from the Quran though.

 

[editor]

Route to peace my ass,
violence is the way of Islam, this is just another western country in hiding.
No doubt in light of the recent show of force from backwards cavemen terrorizing the streets of Denmark

Who's this racist arsehole?

<goes off to check IP addresses>

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who's this racist arsehole?

<goes off to check IP addresses>

Well, he like the word "retard" so he may be good ol' Rogue Yam back for another crack.

Then again he might just be the ignorant arsehole his posts paint him as.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No sources, sorry. But the Tamil Tigers started using suicide bombers 20 years before Hamas, who adopted the tactic in response to the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre, carried out by Baruch Goldstein.

Some people tend to conveniently forget about Goldstein's murderousness, or excuse it by reference to an "unbalanced mind".

The Tamil Tigers are a broad grouping including Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists, often targeting Muslims with their attacks. I'm sure they got the idea from the Quran though.

Or perhaps from the principles of the kamikaze, who also believed that to deliberately give one's life for tactical and/or strategic gain was worthwhile and even honourable.

 

[ymu]

Or perhaps from the principles of the kamikaze, who also believed that to deliberately give one's life for tactical and/or strategic gain was worthwhile and even honourable.

Nope, sorry. I think it's much more likely that they got it from the Quran.

 

[moono]

Or Jesus Christ ? Or the Praying Mantis ? Self-sacrifice is more common than I thought.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nope, sorry. I think it's much more likely that they got it from the Quran.

Ah, but is that because you'd prefer it to be more likely?

 

[rachamim18]

More...

Panda: Are you saying that Peaceniks "transcend partisanship?"

On sacrificing my children, WITHOUT A DOUBT. This is something that you obviously find difficult to even begin to understand. That land is filled with the blood, sweat, and tears of my people going back 4000 years. Your concept of family and responsability to family is alien to me. I have 4 children. 3 are in the IDF, 2 in combat roles. They feel as I do which is enough for me.

ZAMB: If you raise your children correctly it is not a poroblem. If my child still refused to do their duty, I would do as most tradtional Jewish parents do, I would mourn them as if they had died. From that day on they would be dead to me. Your Western individuality is so cute, but meaningless.

If they disagreed with me I would NOT turn them as traitos. However, if they were not willing to serve their people and their nation than , as I said, they would cease to exist in my world.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: Are you saying that Peaceniks "transcend partisanship?"

Read it again, then you won't have to ask stupid questions.

On sacrificing my children, WITHOUT A DOUBT. This is something that you obviously find difficult to even begin to understand.

I find it difficult to see how you believe you have the right to throw away your childrens' lives.
To me that shows not the actions or thoughts of a Jew, but the actions and thoughts of a zealot.

That land is filled with the blood, sweat, and tears of my people going back 4000 years.

YOUR people? I thought your people were American?
Have you decided to wear your Israeli hat today, or perhaps your eastern European one? You flit between your identities so often it gets hard to tell.

Cinceited of you, to assume that Israel is filled with "your" people, given how few of them would agree with the zealotry you've expressed
And childish too, attempting to use the hackneyed "4,000 years" argument.

Your concept of family and responsability to family is alien to me. I have 4 children. 3 are in the IDF, 2 in combat roles. They feel as I do which is enough for me.

Which still doesn't explain your belief that you have a right to dictate whether their lives should be spent or not.

BTW, you don't know anything about my concept of family, except that I wouldn't sacrifice my children to anything.
It isn't my decision to make, and your arrogation of such a right to yourself on the basis that your children supposedly "feel as you do" reveals a sickness in your soul, rather than any kind of familial bond.

 

[rachamim18]

More and more...

Panda: No, it is not "the same as the 'Palestinians'." My beliefs concern DEFENSE of ones people and land...not offense."

As for "IDF soldiers going on record to state that they would not obey illegal orders..." NEWSFLASH: ALL Israeli servicemen and women take an oath with that same principal. It is nt he ethical guideline given to all inductees. The problem with those traitors, is that they are objecting to issues that are NOT warcrimes. If they were, Israel would be under charges. non-binding Resolutions at the inept UN do not mean a thing. those traitors are no different than Israelis who move aboard to shirk National Service.

Kamikazes were a different principal in that they attcaked only military targets.

Goldstein was not on a "suicide op" per se...he was simply deranged.

Moono: 242 = NONBINDING.

YMU: Um, the first group to EVER use so called "suicide bombing" were Hezbollah, a MUSLIM group.As for HAMAS adopting the tactic in response to the Goldstein Massacre, nonsense. You might want to avail yourself to the groups' own words.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: No, it is not "the same as the 'Palestinians'." My beliefs concern DEFENSE of ones people and land...not offense."

Interesting.
And yet your idea of "defence" includes attacking, does it not?

You're a zealot in the same way that some Palestinians are zealots. Your belief in the rightness of your cause blinds you.

As for "IDF soldiers going on record to state that they would not obey illegal orders..." NEWSFLASH: ALL Israeli servicemen and women take an oath with that same principal. It is nt he ethical guideline given to all inductees. The problem with those traitors, is that they are objecting to issues that are NOT warcrimes. If they were, Israel would be under charges. non-binding Resolutions at the inept UN do not mean a thing. those traitors are no different than Israelis who move aboard to shirk National Service.

Attention Mr brain surgeon, you're attributing someone else's post to me.

How about pulling your finger out of your arse and attributing it correctly?

Kamikazes were a different principal in that they attcaked only military targets.

Do a bit of reading, you'll find they were only directed against military targets, but their use was considered (and rejected as being at too high a cost in war materiel) on civilian targets too, especially in the South Pacific.
The principle (note correct spelling) however, applied equally to any target: Death in the cause of advancing the aims of emperor and empire.

Goldstein was not on a "suicide op" per se...he was simply deranged.

So we're told.

 

[ymu]

Ah, but is that because you'd prefer it to be more likely?

S'obvious innit? Suicide bombing is an Islamic thing, so if Christians and Hindus and Buddhists and atheists are doing it, it must be because they turned away from their gentle peace-loving faiths and embraced Islam. If the Quran told them to use F16's, they'd use F16's.

 

[ViolentPanda]

S'obvious innit? Suicide bombing is an Islamic thing, so if Christians and Hindus and Buddhists and atheists are doing it, it must be because they turned away from their gentle peace-loving faiths and embraced Islam. If the Quran told them to use F16's, they'd use F16's.

Ah, I see your logic!

Damn those evil Japanese kamikaze Shinto islamists, and all those other non-Muslim Islamists too!

 

[vimto]

S'obvious innit? Suicide bombing is an Islamic thing, so if Christians and Hindus and Buddhists and atheists are doing it, it must be because they turned away from their gentle peace-loving faiths and embraced Islam. If the Quran told them to use F16's, they'd use F16's.

So why not give the Palestinians a load of F16's alongside whatever else the Israeli State has in its extensive armoury?

Just to even things up a wee bit like...

 

[ViolentPanda]

So why not give the Palestinians a load of F16's alongside whatever else the Israeli State has in its extensive armoury?

Just to even things up a wee bit like...

Yeah, but you'd be lining the pockets of all those Yankee corporations if you did that.

How about a hundred of Israel's finest (which leaves Rachamim out) against a hundred of Palestine's finest. Barehands, to the death?

That would be fair.

 

[vimto]

Yeah, but you'd be lining the pockets of all those Yankee corporations if you did that.

How about a hundred of Israel's finest (which leaves Rachamim out) against a hundred of Palestine's finest. Barehands, to the death?

That would be fair.

Well I suppose it would in all honesty...at least the collateral damage would not be much of an issue in such a situ

 

[obanite]

Gumby, I see you've posted, but have failed to answer my post back on page one of this thread regarding "Ishaq:489", as quoted in big text by you:

“Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who believe there is no shame in killing. We don’t turn from piercing lances. We smite the heads of the haughty with blows that quash the zeal of the unyielding [non-Muslims]. We’re heroes, protecting our war banner. We are a noble force, as fierce as wolves. We preserve our honor and protect our property by smashing heads.” - Ishaq:489

Could you (or anyone else, in fact) provide a direct reference to where this quote can be found in the Quran, please?

cheers!!

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

However, if they were not willing to serve their people and their nation than , as I said, they would cease to exist in my world.

Well then, with a bit of luck you'll end up a lonely old bugger.

Rachamim;

242=NONBINDING

'.. UNSC 242 has binding force under Chapter VII of the UN Charter owing to its incorporation into UN Security Council Resolution 338 '

Dream on, liarboy.

 

[ZAMB]

ZAMB: If you raise your children correctly it is not a poroblem. If my child still refused to do their duty, I would do as most tradtional Jewish parents do, I would mourn them as if they had died. From that day on they would be dead to me. Your Western individuality is so cute, but meaningless.

If they disagreed with me I would NOT turn them as traitos. However, if they were not willing to serve their people and their nation than , as I said, they would cease to exist in my world.

Historically, Jewish rabbis encouraged the rights of conscientious objectors not to take part in any war which went against a person's conscience eg. in the Vietnam war. Are you saying that the Jewish viewpoint on this has changed, or are you saying that your children do not have the right to make their own decisions when killing others is involved without 'ceasing to exist in your world'?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

just short sighted. Who the f**k are Sweden?! And, who are you to call Israel a fascist country? Hamas have NO political platform and will crumble and take the Palestinians with them. They are the fascists, they are weak enough to send others as human bombs into Israel but never their own family or friends, watch Paradise Now, and see how these men are, when once of the potential recruits asks 'will someone come and take me?' (i.e after the explosion), the militant waves his hand and says 'yeah, sure, 70 virgins', smirking. Israel has a lot to answer for but has a far better record of human rights record than most Arab countries, I know how that sentecne will excite you, but it's the truth. Whatever, it doesn't really matter, I hardly ever bother post on here as it's pretty tedious, the constant Israel-bashing you do, are you bored?

i cannot beleive that if rabbical scholars walked out crying from the film paradise now when it was shown in tel aviv that you are anything short of some right wing nut case prepared not only to do disservice to the palestinian cause but also to give the isreali's a good shoing too...

No one who has seen paradise now would even manage to come close to summising it as a pro suicide bomber story...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Extremism begets extremism.

If you learned to be a lot more moderate, then perhaps extremists from the other side wouldn't go at you so readily.

Having said that, gumby does seem an extremist himself -- but perhaps it was moono who provoked him by calling Israel fascist?

or may be you and your fellow atstand fruitcakes invite them to troll the ME forums becuase you are so woefully and inadiquatly informed...

BTW when are you going to reveal what it is you do that's helping to reseolve the Is/Pal issue...

 

[astronaut]

BTW when are you going to reveal what it is you do that's helping to reseolve the Is/Pal issue...

Currently, I talk to Jews, Israelis, non-Jews, leftists, rightists, about extremism, and ways to circumvent the negative influences of extremism.

This is something I feel passionate about, and feel that it is a good contribution for one person to make -- perhaps one day this view can be more influential.

Personally, it is more effective than boycott and protest -- because it build bridges between opposing sides rather than alienates one side or the other.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Historically, Jewish rabbis encouraged the rights of conscientious objectors not to take part in any war which went against a person's conscience eg. in the Vietnam war.

Indeed. Rachamim's intimations that such acts are merely "western Individualism" and are alien to Judaism may be true of a small part of the version of Judaism he practices, and I'm sure he'll claim that scripture supports his view (many zealots take comfort in recourse to scripture, it saves them having to think), but it's hardly a dominant mode, this fanatic's collectivism he espouses.

Are you saying that the Jewish viewpoint on this has changed, or are you saying that your children do not have the right to make their own decisions when killing others is involved without 'ceasing to exist in your world'?

That's exactly what he's saying.

Of course, when he realises just how disgusted most people are with his profession of zealotry, he may try to hedge his words by making reference to his supposedly poor usage of written English.

 

[rachamim18]

More...

Panda: In terms of defence including attacjking, if you mean a proactive defence, so be it.

Anm I a zealot? The Zealots were an organisation that werwe willing to die for what they believed in, a Jewish organisation, extremely nationalist. I would love to meet that watermark. Personally, I DO strive to serve my people but I do not do so at the expense of rationality or logic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: In terms of defence including attacjking, if you mean a proactive defence, so be it.

You "proactive defence" is a form of words, a semantic nicety used as a cover for offensive operations.

Anm I a zealot? The Zealots were an organisation that werwe willing to die for what they believed in, a Jewish organisation, extremely nationalist. I would love to meet that watermark.

Interesting that you now agree that you're all the things you've previously denied being.

Personally, I DO strive to serve my people but I do not do so at the expense of rationality or logic.

Really? And being willing to sacrifice your children on the altar of your fanaticism is rational and logical, is it?

Not in any sane world it isn't.

 

[frogwoman]

However, if they were not willing to serve their people and their nation than , as I said, they would cease to exist in my world.

You're a sick bastard

so if your children didnt want to serve in the idf, you would disown them, and pretend they didnt exist, is that what you're saying ?

fucking wanker ...

if any child of mine wanted to join the british army, or any other army, i wouldnt like it but id respect their choice, and if your children chose not to fight you should respect their choice as well coz its their life, not yours