Boy shot dead in supermarket on Camberwell Road

[Crispy]

don't even know where to start with that

The kernel of truth in it (apart from the crzy turf em on the streets solution) is that the problem is systemic and inherited in broken families. Nurture has a much bigger effect on behaviour that nature, and quality Nurture skills have to be learnt.

A friend of mine used to teach in Lambeth secondary schools, and her opinion was: The bad kids only know fear and anger, and are therefore violent, unsociable and impossible to reason with.. Their parents, when you tell them this, only know fear and anger Sometimes you meet the gandparents (esp. when the parents are absent) and all they know is fear (of authority) and anger (at those who dare crticise them or their child). It's a hideous vicous circle.

 

[Dan U]

The kernel of truth in it (apart from the crzy turf em on the streets solution) is that the problem is systemic and inherited in broken families. Nurture has a much bigger effect on behaviour that nature, and quality Nurture skills have to be learnt.

A friend of mine used to teach in Lambeth secondary schools, and her opinion was: The bad kids only know fear and anger, and are therefore violent, unsociable and impossible to reason with.. Their parents, when you tell them this, only know fear and anger Sometimes you meet the gandparents (esp. when the parents are absent) and all they know is fear (of authority) and anger (at those who dare crticise them or their child). It's a hideous vicous circle.

yep i'd concur with that.

it's the stuff about stopping people having kids conjures up applying before getting pregnant or something. plus the throw them on the street, assuming that all single mums can't raise a kid stuff!

 

[Xeno]

I never said throw them on the streets.
I said it would be difficult. And I should have mentioned contraception. But for contraception to work you have to be certain you don't want babies.

 

[Dan U]

I never said throw them on the streets.
I said it would be difficult. And I should have mentioned contraception. But for contraception to work you have to be certain you don't want babies.

you mention stopping them getting Social Housing and reducing benefits.

what do you think the upshot of that would be if not increasing homelessness?

 

[detective-boy]

.... ignorant people who are proud of not knowing anything.

You do realise there's enough of them here, don't you ...

 

[detective-boy]

The kernel of truth in it (apart from the crzy turf em on the streets solution) is that the problem is systemic and inherited in broken families.

And the collateral massive advantage in it is that we (and the entire world) need to reduce our population significantly and urgently if we are to avoid food / fuel / water / etc. wars ....

 

[Xeno]

When I said it was difficult I was saying I don't pretend to have all the answers. And not getting a flat means not being able to move out of where you were before. It doesn't mean compulsory bedding in cardboard city.
At the moment the housing/benefits thing is an incentive to have babies and that can't be right.

Dan U, I appreciate your disquiet at the idea of people being vetted before they are allowed to have children and I do not assume all mums are incapable of bringing up children properly (I would guess, however, that 90 per cent of 16-year-old single mums really really don't). It looks like a fascist regime to me too and it is not what I am proposing. But Crispy knows what I am saying. It is a vicious circle and we ought to try and break it somehow. Not really sure how, but the status quo is not an option, IMO.

 

[Dan U]

When I said it was difficult I was saying I don't pretend to have all the answers. And not getting a flat means not being able to move out of where you were before. It doesn't mean compulsory bedding in cardboard city.
At the moment the housing/benefits thing is an incentive to have babies and that can't be right.

well it could (and does) mean severe over crowding where the mother and child already live if they didn't get a flat.

or they'd end up in Temporary Accommodation if they had to be kicked out of where they live - councils have a statutory duty in these cases afaik.

 

[Xeno]

You know, well maybe you don't, that some girls have babies so as to get flats? It may not be universal, but it does happen, and I expect that those least committed to the upbringing of their children, with the lowest ambitions for them, are people like this, using the child as a means to an end. I speculate further that these babies are tomorrow's gangsters.

I appreciate your fears Dan U but maybe we have to start somewhere. Current situation is bad for the mother, bad for the child and, when he grows up, bad for everybody else.

 

[Dan U]

i'm with you on the cause Xenon, up to a point.

i just think we differ on the solutions.

 

[DotCommunist]

Also, Im doing pina coladas and various fruit daquiris (mango/ blueberry/ strawberry). Just let me know which you'd prefer. I have tiny cocktail umbrellas!

I see Kanda still has his giant bag of popcorn

 

[Mrs Magpie]

My neighbour has just been round with a card to sign. Ricky Bravo lived on my road. That's two blameless victims from my area in a year.

 

[Blagsta]

When I said it was difficult I was saying I don't pretend to have all the answers. And not getting a flat means not being able to move out of where you were before. It doesn't mean compulsory bedding in cardboard city.
At the moment the housing/benefits thing is an incentive to have babies and that can't be right.

Dan U, I appreciate your disquiet at the idea of people being vetted before they are allowed to have children and I do not assume all mums are incapable of bringing up children properly (I would guess, however, that 90 per cent of 16-year-old single mums really really don't). It looks like a fascist regime to me too and it is not what I am proposing. But Crispy knows what I am saying. It is a vicious circle and we ought to try and break it somehow. Not really sure how, but the status quo is not an option, IMO.

Hey, why not provide decent affordable housing for everyone, decent education, worthwhile jobs that pay good money, affordable childcare, proper maternity leave and decent mental health services?

Oh no, far easier just to ban people having babies and house no one.


fuckwit

 

[Andy the Don]

A friend of mine used to teach in Lambeth secondary schools, and her opinion was: The bad kids only know fear and anger, and are therefore violent, unsociable and impossible to reason with.. Their parents, when you tell them this, only know fear and anger Sometimes you meet the gandparents (esp. when the parents are absent) and all they know is fear (of authority) and anger (at those who dare crticise them or their child). It's a hideous vicous circle.

But it is not just fear of authority but contempt of authority or anything that represents authority such as a school, teacher or any other public service. I have heard parents, when their children have been pulled up for vandalising school/public property saying, well its only a school so it does not matter and why should they make a contribution toward the damage they have caused.

 

[hendo]

. I admit, implementing something like this would be extremely difficult, but surely we have to do something to try and prevent fools from begetting more fools.

.

Thank God we don't live in that society. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather be shot than live in a world where the government can stop someone from having a child.

 

[Xeno]

Thank God we don't live in that society. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather be shot than live in a world where the government can stop someone from having a child.

I never said anything about compelling people not to have children. Just not providing incentives.

 

[likesfish]

bringing back the old style mother and baby homes seriously fuck up the mothers and kids get adopted by "nice" parents
doable.
I doubt any goverment can provide decent education housing and employment or we would have managed it in the last 50 years

 

[Blagsta]

I never said anything about compelling people not to have children. Just not providing incentives.

So we let pregnant women sleep on the street in cardboard boxes? Hurrah!

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Interesting article here about kids/single parenting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-single-mum-quadruplets-got-universities.html

 

[Xeno]

So we let pregnant women sleep on the street in cardboard boxes? Hurrah!

No, I think we should construct temporary accommodation in the wide open space between your ears.

 

[Blagsta]

No, I think we should construct temporary accommodation in the wide open space between your ears.

Seriously, what do you propose to do if you stop pregnant women getting a flat?

 

[lang rabbie]

I never said anything about compelling people not to have children. Just not providing incentives.

Lambeth's high teenage pregnancy rate appears to have very little to do with any national "incentives" from the benefits system or entitlement to housing:

FAQ busting scatter diagram of teenage pregnancy rates - Lambeth is the square at the top

 

[lang rabbie]

oops - duplicate post

 

[hendo]

I never said anything about compelling people not to have children. Just not providing incentives.

You said:

surely we have to do something to try and prevent fools from begetting more fools.

It's the word 'prevent' that misled me.

 

[rodnando]

Poor poor Ryan. Up until last year this boy was my neighbour (lived opposite). I lived on Moorlands estate 9yrs, all the family were really nice and he was always so smiley/chatty. I'm sooooo glad I've moved out of area it's the best thing I've done for my little boy. After living on Moorlands for 9yrs Brixton for 11 I felt it was getting worse not better and I felt uneasy the whole time, like something was about to kick off any min. Now live in Bath and the whole time we've been here we've not seem one YELLOW murder board, very very different life here!