Boxing Vs Mixed Martial Arts

[Biglittlefish]

T'ai ch'i and Ba Gua for proprioception and balance in the stance, muay thai for the kicking techniques (+ knees and elbows), western boxing for the body movement and hand training, a bit of wing chun for the straight 'forward force' punching style, jui jitsu and american wrestling for grappling, although I reckon BJJ is pretty good too.

JKD has some interesting features, I kind of enjoyed Ninjutsu (i.e. Bujinkan Taijutsu) but tbh I couldn't see anything you wouldn't learn better elsewhere.

The problem with Aikido etc is the unrealistic nature of the attacks. A great boxer can put in a flurry of devastating blows from all different angles, with amazing speed and deception. Sure you can probably do some good stuff once you have a hand on them but what the hell is gonna happen in the meantime? A good boxer should also have vicious close-range body shots, shovel hooks etc etc.

Not that I'm in any way opposed to the 'spiritual' side of things, but it has to be tempered with realism.

Those 'become a tough man in three weeks' things have some interestingly nasty military techniques for putting people down quickly (ditto the civilian martial arts derived from them) but honestly is breaking someone's collarbone then knee-dropping onto their head ever really gonna be such a great idea?

Yeah but who the fucks got the time to learn all of those. I guess they have places where they teach em all. Wonder if anywhere combines them into some kind of program.

You expressed my problems with aikido better than I could. If someone starts a flurry of punches your gettin hit.

 

[Bakunin]

but the idea of fighting ugly is good.
strikes to groin, throat, bollocks, cunt. eye gauging. biting. riping someone's mouth. etc.
all this is taught in the KMC class.
and loads of people from security to the police do these classes - cos it works.
it's ugly as fuck but it is effective.

My grandfather was a sergeant major in the Royal marines and he always taught me that the dirty tactics are the most effective.

His personal favourite were gouging the eyes and what he called 'a good kick in the goolies.'

He gave one to an Italian sailor during a pierside brawl in Boston in 1936.

With a steel-toecapped boot.

 

[tarannau]

Ach, a little skinny bloke I knew was the most formidable street fighter. Hong Kong family, high belt levels in a couple of the more traditional disciplines.

But in reality he didn't need the style. His attacks were a flurry of brutal elbows, knees and powerful downward shin kicks - he didn't believe in high kicks because he believed an adept fighter could nearly always catch them. Wasn't much of a spectator sport mind - the unfortunates who started on him invariably went down after one or two brutally short combos. Actually a scary bloke to be around - I have no idea what martial art's really best for 'real combat,' but it takes a certain kind of person and menatality to be able to mete that kind of assault out.

 

[isitme]

Does noone else like K-1? I prefer it loads to the grappling ones because it's basically Tekken (lots of flying kicks and spinning elbows and stuff)

I'm not an expert on fighting, but I think that tai chi and wing chun are good for giving you confidence, and if you do it for a few years it will help you in a fight

Ninjitsu is daft as a combat sport, undoubtably someone who trained ninjitsu for 20 years would be pretty nails, cos it is a kind of MMA (elements of Chinese and Japanese martial arts) but ninjas aren't meant to stand and fight, a lot of it is stuff like concealment and so on

 

[Bakunin]

Does noone else like K-1? I prefer it loads to the grappling ones because it's basically Tekken (lots of flying kicks and spinning elbows and stuff)

I'm not an expert on fighting, but I think that tai chi and wing chun are good for giving you confidence, and if you do it for a few years it will help you in a fight

Ninjitsu is daft as a combat sport, undoubtably someone who trained ninjitsu for 20 years would be pretty nails, cos it is a kind of MMA (elements of Chinese and Japanese martial arts) but ninjas aren't meant to stand and fight, a lot of it is stuff like concealment and so on

I do like K-1, yes.

It's media friendly and is growing fast in the USA.

 

[Idaho]

i do find the civilian versions to be rubbish.
and you often see a skinny/fat fucker getting false confidence in class.
problem is that their bodies aren't conditioned to inflict that type of damage.
(for example, learning a shin kick is useful. but the shins takes years to condition and harden! a normal civilian cannot perform this properly with a couple of weeks of training).

but the idea of fighting ugly is good.
strikes to groin, throat, bollocks, cunt. eye gauging. biting. riping someone's mouth. etc.
all this is taught in the KMC class.
and loads of people from security to the police do these classes - cos it works.
it's ugly as fuck but it is effective.

Effective at what? All this 'on the street' stuff is 99% macho bollocks. How many times in a person's life are they likely to need such techniques? And of those tiny number of times, how often will an assailant come up behind them and wack them over the head/stab them in the back? Judging by most muggings and other attacks, the suprise attack is the one most commonly employed. The perfect counter to which is not martial skill but an awareness of surroundings and the ability to run quickly.

Ach, a little skinny bloke I knew was the most formidable street fighter. Hong Kong family, high belt levels in a couple of the more traditional disciplines.

But in reality he didn't need the style. His attacks were a flurry of brutal elbows, knees and powerful downward shin kicks - he didn't believe in high kicks because he believed an adept fighter could nearly always catch them. Wasn't much of a spectator sport mind - the unfortunates who started on him invariably went down after one or two brutally short combos. Actually a scary bloke to be around - I have no idea what martial art's really best for 'real combat,' but it takes a certain kind of person and menatality to be able to mete that kind of assault out.

Definately. Some people are just hard. They are strong, fast, have a killer instinct and are oblivious to pain during a fight. Martial arts just give them a more focussed way to train and maximise these natural traits.

Aikido is a great martial art. But it isn't necessarily going to help you in the entirely fictional wild-west 'on the street' scenario so beloved of martial artists. It will help your 'martial sense' in improving balance, ability to shift weight, land on the ground without hurting yourself, and giving help with grappling. It will also build confidence, help toward physical mastery and provide the interesting mental-physical conundrums that martial arts pose.

 

[Fruitloop]

One thing that I notice is that the typical MMA stance is more upright than a boxing stance, and rather closely resembles stances from pre-Queensbury rules prizefighting, under which grappling was permitted. If you think about it, this makes a certain amount of sense, in boxing you can afford to commit your balance rather further forward to facilitate striking, whereas if your opponent is likely to use a judo throw, you want to be much more cautious about balance.

Static weight on the front knee is no good if kicks are allowed too.

 

[CharlieAddict]

Effective at what? All this 'on the street' stuff is 99% macho bollocks. How many times in a person's life are they likely to need such techniques? And of those tiny number of times, how often will an assailant come up behind them and wack them over the head/stab them in the back? Judging by most muggings and other attacks, the suprise attack is the one most commonly employed. The perfect counter to which is not martial skill but an awareness of surroundings and the ability to run quickly.

like i said, most people in security, the forces, the police take up KMC (the classes i went to, 40% of the regulars came from these backgrounds).
as for me, i not been in a violent incident for nearly two years now.
i keep my head down and avoid conflict.
if someone gives me shit, i give in.
can't be fucked beating the shit out of a pissed bloke who's trying to impress his gf/friends.
been there. done that.
it's a waste of my time. i'm not gonna waste my freedom on such nonsense.
been training too long to waste my body on idiots.

but i never run away.
just avoid getting in that situation in the first place.

as for macho-ness.
yeah, you get those people too.
their reason for training does not concern me.
people train for different reasons.
for fitness. for self-assurance. for macho-ness. for whatever.
good luck to them.

 

[Fruitloop]

Interestingly judo seems to get a bad rep these days for being essentially 'sport' focussed, but that was where I started and it taught me a huge amount about body weight and balance, disruption and deception of the opponents flow etc.

 

[Idaho]

their reason for training does not concern me.
people train for different reasons.
for fitness. for self-assurance. for macho-ness. for whatever.
good luck to them.

And yet "Aikido is for girls"?

 

[CharlieAddict]

And yet "Aikido is for girls"?

you wear them black skirts.

 

[dtb]

most MMA fights are very dull and boring to watch, much prefer amateur or professional boxing

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interestingly judo seems to get a bad rep these days for being essentially 'sport' focussed, but that was where I started and it taught me a huge amount about body weight and balance, disruption and deception of the opponents flow etc.

There's judo and judo. Brazilian Ju-Jitsu is basically Judo as taught in the Japanese University system during the 1930's, so called 'kosen judo' developed after the Kodokan lost to the Fusen ryu's groundwork techniques and incorporated them. Prior to that Judo was optimised more for police work and didn't have so much groundwork (where his mates could kick you to death) but did have a lot of stuff that was very relevant to fights, hence all the punching and kicking in the 'maximum efficiency thingumy kata' (blanked on the name alas)

What most people now know as Judo is olympic judo, which is based on the watered-down set of techniques left after they took the nasty stuff out either pre or post WW2, depending who you believe. It's fair enough to call that sport judo, but it's still fairly effective within its limits. Just doesn't put much emphasis on dealing with realistic self-defence situations except for a couple of kata seniors learn for gradings, but don't really study enough for use.

You can still turn it into something very usable for fighting though by supplementing it with a bit of kickboxing (and if you're planning to use it for streetfighting rather than challenge bouts, by actively studying the 'history' and 'defence' kata with an emphasis on figuring out their real applications). As for example Fedor, who was a borderline olympic class judoka before he got into MMA and added a bit of kickboxing to his extremely competent judo/sambo skills.

 

[Bajie]

Aikido is a Martial Dance rather than a Martial Art (not taking the piss, I am serious). Much the same as Capoeira is, except Capoeira has lots of good looking women doing it.

Where I train a couple of the people have had pro-MMA fights and do go to a boxing gym also, as it is a great supplment to get some good punching skills, but they see it as only a part of what they do.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I don't think Aikido is useless by any means, it just has different assumptions to say military unarmed combat or MMA. You could equally criticise MMA for its emphasis on ground fighting, something that is fairly likely to get you kicked to death if the environment in which you are fighting is Argyle St. Birkenhead on Friday night. In a 1-1 challenge bout that allows it though, ground fighting is extremely important and it's at least nice to know some outside that environment.

All of these systems come with a set of assumptions about environment, rules, constraints and so on, within which their body of technique evolves. All of them are seriously compromised if you try to use them outside of those implicit assumptions. The trick is understanding which set of assumptions best meets your own need.

Aikido assumes that you place a higher priority on 'ethical' self defence and on staying within the law than on smashing the living fuck out of your opponent as efficiently and frightningly as possible with no regard to subsquent legal issues. It also assumes that you aren't drunk but are cultivating the mental discipline to pull off moves requiring fine motor control and extreme sensitivity to your opponent's balance, mental state etc. in circumstances where most people would be crazy on adrenaline and too shaky to make stuff like that work. I personally don't find those assumptions meet my self defence needs, such as they are these days, but I have respect for those people who decide that those constraints and assumptions are the right ones for them. I have absolutely no doubt that if you can live within those constraints it works adequately for self-defence. I just think that sets the bar a bit high for many people.

 

[october_lost]

With Krava Maga the kickback for the funding goes to Israel, not too happy about that, otherwise I might look into what all the fuss is about. Im of the opinion that comparing TMAs and even MMAs, is largely pointless, Bruce Lee was right when he said you have to just discard things you find useless.

And yet "Aikido is for girls"?

The rolls, certain holds, defence against weapons and stratergies against multiple opponents I rated, the rest was pretty much about philosphy. I have heard there are 'hard schools' out there and would like to see what they teach before I pass final judgement on the system. I think there are logical reasons why the combat side of the art has been played down over the years, so I dont want to slate the entire art. Ive heard the early form was similar to JJ.

From WC I liked the direct applications and the reactions I managed to pickup, but the rest I look at as having bits missing, definitely not a fan of the footwork. I have no complaints about judo though, its practical, cheap and a good workout.

 

[The Groke]

Interestingly judo seems to get a bad rep these days for being essentially 'sport' focussed, but that was where I started and it taught me a huge amount about body weight and balance, disruption and deception of the opponents flow etc.

I would whole heartedly agree with this.

Even today, fat, unfit, untrained and 16 years away from the last time I competed/trained for Judo, whenever I have play-fights with mates, that training - unbidden - always comes to the fore and consequently, I am a hard man to beat on the ground.

 

[Idaho]

The rolls, certain holds, defence against weapons and stratergies against multiple opponents I rated, the rest was pretty much about philosphy. I have heard there are 'hard schools' out there and would like to see what they teach before I pass final judgement on the system. I think there are logical reasons why the combat side of the art has been played down over the years, so I dont want to slate the entire art. Ive heard the early form was similar to JJ.

That's just it, Aikido isn't a 'system' it's a martial art and is hence about physical mastery by way of learning fighting techniques. It also has a very large number of variations, some of which would be more recognisably 'martial' to some of those looking for a self defence system.

 

[Fruitloop]

As I understand it the founder of Aikido expected that all students would be proficient in at least one other discipline first.

 

[CharlieAddict]

Even today, fat, unfit, untrained and 16 years away from the last time I competed/trained for Judo, whenever I have play-fights with mates, that training - unbidden - always comes to the fore and consequently, I am a hard man to beat on the ground.

judo is awesome.
kimura is one of my heroes!
you can do some serious damage in this art.
crashing another body onto concrete - ouch!
though the sporting element has diluted this...

when i come against a judo brown/black belt, i never ever stand against them.
it's a shame cos old style judo involved alot of ground work (submission)...

 

[teecee]

Another thing to bear in mind is that it's not always the art that makes a good martial artist. If you are naturally gifted with speed, timing etc and can make any technique work you'll go far in any martial art you decide to do and you'll get it to work for you . There is no guarantee that an MMA practitioner will always beat a Karate guy just because his style is "better". In that respect JKD is pretty good as it allows you to follow your own path and find what works for you - You still have to learn the core curriculum of Jun Fan Gung Fu (The actual martial art) but you can incorporate other styles like BJJ/Shoot/Kali into your Jeet jun Do System

And for what is' worth Filipino Martial Arts for the win - a lot of the stuff I see in Krav Magda is very similar to the empty hands stuff in Kali and Silat . The stuff you learn is very "street" effective too- but again it boils down to the practitioner an aggressive, experienced street fighter can still take down a "skilled" martial artist who is thinking where his feet should be to deliver maximum power.

There's even some nice groundwork in Kali but it also generally involves groin strikes - now that would change the BJJ game if you could punch a guy in the bollocks while he had you in the guard

 

[Fruitloop]

I would whole heartedly agree with this.

Even today, fat, unfit, untrained and 16 years away from the last time I competed/trained for Judo, whenever I have play-fights with mates, that training - unbidden - always comes to the fore and consequently, I am a hard man to beat on the ground.

Yeah, that if anything is the mark of a really good art I think. Years later when under pressure it's the judo/t'ai ch'i stuff that just pops out, and I've practiced other stuff far more consistently.

Sounds like you did a simlar older-style judo to what I did. Half our sparring started from kneeling or on the floor!

Those rice mats hurt like crap to crash into as well

 

[Idaho]

For the 'street' I always suggest the ancient and noble art of finding any object and swinging it very fast at someone then running away.

For learning a martial art I suggest finding a teacher you get on with and a style that appeals to you.

 

[CharlieAddict]

Another thing to bear in mind is that it's not always the art that makes a good martial artist. If you are naturally gifted with speed, timing etc and can make any technique work you'll go far in any martial art you decide to do and you'll get it to work for you . There is no guarantee that an MMA practitioner will always beat a Karate guy just because his style is "better". In that respect JKD is pretty good as it allows you to follow your own path and find what works for you - You still have to learn the core curriculum of Jun Fan Gung Fu (The actual martial art) but you can incorporate other styles like BJJ/Shoot/Kali into your Jeet jun Do System

And for what is' worth Filipino Martial Arts for the win - a lot of the stuff I see in Krav Magda is very similar to the empty hands stuff in Kali and Silat . The stuff you learn is very "street" effective too- but again it boils down to the practitioner an aggressive, experienced street fighter can still take down a "skilled" martial artist who is thinking where his feet should be to deliver maximum power.

There's even some nice groundwork in Kali but it also generally involves groin strikes - now that would change the BJJ game if you could punch a guy in the bollocks while he had you in the guard

kali is amazing for knife attacks.
one of my training partner's dad was in the military security services and he carried one everywhere in south asia.
he always tell the story of when his home was invaded by some crazy mofos in papua new guinea.
he had to get the wife and kids into a room.
and stomed bout with a telescopic stick and knuckle dusters.

anyway, the strikes in that are fucking awesome.
i'd love to learn this but telescopic sticks are illegal in the uk
but sticks aren't

where can i learn kali?
(excluding bob green's school. it's too expensive).

 

[october_lost]

Do a search under philipino MA, theres escrima, arnis and other variations.

 

[Fruitloop]

Escrima is the shiznit for blade vs blade fighting, but tbh if that's a serious consideration then you might need to rethink your lifestyle/career!!!

 

[teecee]

where can i learn kali?
(excluding bob green's school. it's too expensive).

Hmm wanna trade skills I need to get back into grappling after few years with a dodgy back and all the young uns are going to toy with me when I do get back to that part of my training, so I need to do some training on the sly first

 

[teecee]

Do a search under philipino MA, theres escrima, arnis and other variations.

At the risk of opening up a can of worms I'd recommend against some of the Doce Pares schools though - from what I've seen there is an awful lot of politics that ruin it in that particular style, which is a pity as they have some nice stuff in their system

 

[teecee]

Escrima is the shiznit for blade vs blade fighting, but tbh if that's a serious consideration then you might need to rethink your lifestyle/career!!!

But you can do it for the beauty of the art though, and if you like subtlety in a martial art then this side of it has in spades

 

[CharlieAddict]

Hmm wanna trade skills I need to get back into grappling after few years with a dodgy back and all the young uns are going to toy with me when I do get back to that part of my training, so I need to do some training on the sly first

sure, why not?
i'm always open to new arts.
and i love the look of kali - very beautiful, like some artistic violence.
if i could choose my death - then death by a kali expert would be acceptable.

i'm better at BJJ than i am in wrestling.
there are loads of better people than me but i can show some drills. the escapes. armbars. chokes.
without knowing your skill level, i dunno what i skills i can trade with you.

there are two places where i roll.
one of the them is free.
and if we can get there early on a saturday, the mats are ours - providing you help me set it up.
hell, i know someone on this thread who will be interested also.

funnily enough, my BJJ instructor wants to set up a tournament.
he's invited fighters from any martial art/fighting system to challenge a few BJJ guys.
be interesting. may catch it on video and stick it on youtube.