Borough market to disappear?

[Monkeynuts]

Did you know they've killed the silverlink from stratford to woolwich?

Yes but... the DLR is go and the new orbital route is now taking shape via the East London Railway, from the remaining bits of the North London Railway down through Noo Cross via Palace, Croydon and back up via Clapham Jct.

Woolwich would have been no good as part of the orbital route.

 

[trashpony]

Yes but... the DLR is go and the new orbital route is now taking shape via the East London Railway, from the remaining bits of the North London Railway down through Noo Cross via Palace, Croydon and back up via Clapham Jct.

Woolwich would have been no good as part of the orbital route.

No one ever wants to go to Woolwich anyway

 

[Streathamite]

Fucks sake, it's going to knock down a couple of old buildings (cos there's a shortage of those in London) and force the market to replan slightly. In return for which London Bridge station will be able to handle a higher throughput of passengers.

Cannot believe the NIMBYISM here - in favour of expanding public transport so long as it doesn't involve making any actual changes to bits of London we like...

there's another point of view; borough market cuturally enriches London, ALL of London. yet more hideous railway-infrastructure buildings to enable people to travel sllighlty more efficiently, with all the netgain gone in a decade (given the railways' usual performance and ineptitude) simply doesn't.
i.e. quality of life over soulless gradgrindian utlitarianism.
and what's wrong with that?
and have you ever seen a more hideous major railway station than London Bridge?

 

[Streathamite]

No one ever wants to go to Woolwich anyway

well, students would, ditto soldiers.

 

[dash]

there's another point of view; borough market cuturally enriches London, ALL of London.

It doesn't culturally enrich me. It's for people who are prepared to spend three quid on a loaf of bread. I don't begrudge them that but it no more enriches all of London than does Fortnum & Mason or some wine merchant on Pall Mall.

 

[trashpony]

there's another point of view; borough market cuturally enriches London, ALL of London. yet more hideous railway-infrastructure buildings to enable people to travel sllighlty more efficiently, with all the netgain gone in a decade (given the railways' usual performance and ineptitude) simply doesn't.
i.e. quality of life over soulless gradgrindian utlitarianism.
and what's wrong with that?
and have you ever seen a more hideous major railway station than London Bridge?

How does borough market culturally enrich all of London?



Yeah London Bridge is very ugly indeed. But ripping it all down and rebuilding it would cost a bloody fortune. And I'd rather they spent the money on improving the lines than the aesthetics of the place.

 

[Monkeynuts]

and have you ever seen a more hideous major railway station than London Bridge?

And have you ever thought that making the through route from London Bridge to Charing Cross work is but one part of making the station less hideous and more usable?

That one of the reasons the station is hideous is because of the way its development has been constrained?

That hundreds of thousands, if not millions of us, deserve not to have to suffer the most hideous major railway station on our everyday (note that please) journeys?

That it is a bit ironic that you should develop something around a viaduct and then whinge like f*** when they need to reconfigure that viaduct?

That the needs of the privileged few should be favoured over the needs of the many, from the capital's most disadvanted quadrant?

 

[Crispy]

London Bridge Station's redevelopment and effective rebuilding has been on the cards for years now. Friend of mine used to work for one of the architects involved. He said it was the most hellishly complicated design/construction job in the world, ever. There are about 6 different land/building owners, severely restricted sites with no space for construction yards, and about 50 years of hotch-potch development that actually needs to carry on functioning while being demolished and rebuilt. Not simple in the slightest.

So, I don't mind if the market loses some space to let it all happen. The market isn't being shut down, and I doubt anyone's going to suggest that it should be - a lot of money goes through it. It will just have to re-plan and get a bit smaller.

 

[William of Walworth]

That above (photoshopped?) impression of the new bridge's position suggests, to me, that on the other side of the main market (to that picture's left) the Market Porter is going to get it in the neck!!!!!



But in general actually, I'm in favour of those arguing in favour of a new railway bridge there, whch is certainly needed. Just that I also agree with Roadkill that the project ought to be done sensitively ...

 

[Roadkill]

That one of the reasons the station is hideous is because of the way its development has been constrained?

That and the fact that it was originally two adjacent stations owned by different companies before the railway grouping in 1923. They were only amalgamated under the aegis of the Southern Railway, I think during the 1930s. That's why the high-level through platforms and the terminus seem so separate. It is a badly laid-out station, and BR's post-war regeneration of it now just looks dilapidated and dated.

Having another line out of it isn't going to change any of that - the station itself needs a facelift - but it will speed up journeys through it towards and away from Cannon Street and Charing Cross. It should put a stop to trains having to sit at signals in the station throat whilst they wait for a platform to come free as well.

 

[Monkeynuts]

Note also:

1. The station was built before the current market.
2. Parts of the building you think are so cool are actually very recent additions - e.g. the structure that used to be at Covent Garden. These were actually put up when the Thameslink plans were already on the table. In tis context this expansion seems to me like the most fantastically arrogant fuckwittedness.

 

[Monkeynuts]

Having another line out of it isn't going to change any of that - the station itself needs a facelift - but it will speed up journeys through it towards and away from Cannon Street and Charing Cross. It should put a stop to trains having to sit at signals in the station throat whilst they wait for a platform to come free as well.

The line itself won't, but it is one integrated part of a plan to reconfigure the tracks into the station to address the current imbalance between terminal and through platforms and improve through capacity onwards to Charing X and Cannon St.

This plan requires reconstruction of the platforms and involves reconstruction of the station itself.

 

[TopCat]

Where oh where will I be able to buy olive bread at £4.80 a small loaf!

 

[kyser_soze]

there's another point of view; borough market cuturally enriches London, ALL of London. yet more hideous railway-infrastructure buildings to enable people to travel sllighlty more efficiently, with all the netgain gone in a decade (given the railways' usual performance and ineptitude) simply doesn't.
i.e. quality of life over soulless gradgrindian utlitarianism.
and what's wrong with that?
and have you ever seen a more hideous major railway station than London Bridge?

Well since the market itself isn't being closed, how exactly is making LB a more efficient station going to significantly impact on that? I would imagine that most of the people who visit Borough do so via the Jubilee Line or walk up the Thames Path anyway...

 

[beeboo]

That above (photoshopped?) impression of the new bridge's position suggests, to me, that on the other side of the main market (to that picture's left) the Market Porter is going to get it in the neck!!!!!



But in general actually, I'm in favour of those arguing in favour of a new railway bridge there, whch is certainly needed. Just that I also agree with Roadkill that the project ought to be done sensitively ...

The Market Porter should be OK

The Wheatsheaf a few doors down looks like it's going to lose it's top floor, with the viaduct rattling directly over the top!

There are some plans here (might be out of date):

http://www.sabmac.co.uk/affected/plan2.htm

 

[beeboo]

double post

 

[beeboo]

triple post!

 

[beeboo]

quadruple post!

 

[Crispy]

U-U-U-U-Ultra Post! +10 Bonus Points!

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Londons public Transport needs will always take precedence over overpriced cheeses in my book.

what about the pubs , though

 

[Roadkill]

The line itself won't, but it is one integrated part of a plan to reconfigure the tracks into the station to address the current imbalance between terminal and through platforms and improve through capacity onwards to Charing X and Cannon St.

<edit>

Ah. I've just had a quick look at some stuff on the web and I see what they're planning to do. Can't come too soon IMO.

 

[Streathamite]

It doesn't culturally enrich me. It's for people who are prepared to spend three quid on a loaf of bread. I don't begrudge them that but it no more enriches all of London than does Fortnum & Mason or some wine merchant on Pall Mall.

it actually is a place where a huge amount of people shop. every saturday it is packed to the rafters - go see if you don't believe me. yes, the food's pricey, but not as exorbitantly so as you suggest, and there is, afetr all, quite a large market in London for that sort of thing. and it certainly enriches London as a whole, however indirectly, more than yet another facility for home counties commuters.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Fwiw and afaik, the market won't "dissapear".

As the artist's impression posted earlier shows, the plan is to widen the current bridge on the Borough High St side which will take out some (all?) of the back of the Stirling Ackroyd/Jade Cafe block as well as the existing market in the unrenovated front part + will swing round the back of the Market Porter (tho' leaving it untouched) altho the backs of the old Petite Robert/Glas restaurant row (ie opposite the cheese shop) will go.

Personally I find it far too rammed these days so generally avoid unless I get there before 9.30.

 

[Monkeynuts]

it actually is a place where a huge amount of people shop. every saturday it is packed to the rafters - go see if you don't believe me. yes, the food's pricey, but not as exorbitantly so as you suggest, and there is, afetr all, quite a large market in London for that sort of thing. and it certainly enriches London as a whole, however indirectly, more than yet another facility for home counties commuters.

Are you suggesting that London Bridge is "another facility for the home counties commuter"? You aren't aware that it is the ONLY route into town for much of SE London? Just, like, a quarter of the city?

And so what if it was? Why are people's needs less valid if they live in Kent or Sussex? People have to live there as a result of the lack of affordable housing in the city, and work here due to the lack of local employment in many cases.

Over 37 million people a year use London Bridge station and yet you favour keeping unaltered a market that has developed into its current form only over the last few years over their needs?

You tell me.. is it fair to call you a selfish, elitist ***** (I've taken it out, put your own in) with a warped sense of priorities?

 

[Monkeynuts]

And incidentally, it is effectively just shopping we are talking about. Why is this particular bit of shopping so worthy? The snobbery is coming out...

 

[kyser_soze]

it actually is a place where a huge amount of people shop. every saturday it is packed to the rafters - go see if you don't believe me. yes, the food's pricey, but not as exorbitantly so as you suggest, and there is, afetr all, quite a large market in London for that sort of thing. and it certainly enriches London as a whole, however indirectly, more than yet another facility for home counties commuters.

Yeah, but Jezza, the market isn't going to dissappear. Some of the surrounding buildings will be demolished, but the market itself will keep trading.

 

[maximilian ping]

Yeah, but Jezza, the market isn't going to dissappear. Some of the surrounding buildings will be demolished, but the market itself will keep trading.

can a mod pretty please change the title of the thread, it's totally misleading and i didnt mean it guvnar

 

[trashpony]

I never thought I'd see Jezza arguing for the rights of the wealthy to continue buying their free-range Aberdeen Angus and freshly made ciabatta

 

[DJWrongspeed]

The main point about objecting to the development is that it is a conservation area but it certainly wasn't a conservation area when they built the original railways. This development is simply fixing a fault with the original railway plan.

This isn't like Spitalfields, the market will still be very much intact, i'm in favour, no listed buildings will be taken out.

 

[beeboo]

Yeah, but Jezza, the market isn't going to dissappear. Some of the surrounding buildings will be demolished, but the market itself will keep trading.

Exactly. And I think the amount of investment that has taken place in recent years (expansion of the market, expansion of the Vinopolis/Wine Wharf, Roast and other various new restaurants, Paul Smith shop, I could go on...) is indicator enough that there is confidence that the market will continue to thrive.

The people who are financing these businesses (we're not just talking a few farmers selling potatoes) would not have done so without doing their homework, realising that the viaduct was either a foregone conclusion or at least very highly probably, and made the decision to invest despite that. Therefore I think it is fairly safe to assume that the long term future of the market is pretty safe.

And as someone who travels in and out of London Bridge every day, and also regularly uses most of the other main stations, I would say that LB users are probably LESS likely to be 'home counties commuters' than the users of the other stations. You're at least as likely to find builders, office cleaners, college students etc.