Books about 'evil' and the capacity for human cruelty and violence

[Homeless Mal]

The Gates of Janus by Ian Brady. Ho hum.

 

[camouflage]

I've read Gitta Sereny's Cries Unheard and The German Trauma which understands mankind's propensity for unimagiable cruelty, without letting any of the perpetrators off the hook
I've also read Blake Morrison's As If, which explores children's capacity for terrible cruelty.
And I think the humanity of Pat Barker's novels breaks a lot of ground in our understanding of the extraordinary acts of violence and harm people can do to one another.
I would like people to recommend me some more books which do more to explore the dark side of the human condition without lazily labellling them as 'evil'.
Your suggestions please.

Why? People do fucked up shit, and sometimes dogs leave horrible things on the carpet, who wants to read about that?

 

[Robstarr]

Pimp the story of my life - Robert Beck / Iceberg Slim

Very ugly and depressing memoir, but fascinating regarding how the author's experiences of maternal neglect and abuse from various adults in his childhood, combined with societal racism resulted in him becoming a woman hating, self-loathing, drug addicted, violent, murderous pimp.

Pimp is an excellent read

 

[Echo Base]

Your suggestions please.

Blood Meridian. Its a fictionalised account of the exploits of the Glanton Gang on the Mexico border in the late 19th century.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Pimp the story of my life - Robert Beck / Iceberg Slim

Very ugly and depressing memoir, but fascinating regarding how the author's experiences of maternal neglect and abuse from various adults in his childhood, combined with societal racism resulted in him becoming a woman hating, self-loathing, drug addicted, violent, murderous pimp.

Have you seen "American Pimp", by the guys who did menace 2 society? He's in that, with a host of other P-i-m-ps. Despite being a slight glamourisation of the nastyness involved, their are some really dark moments, where they ask about beating women. Most of the pimps kind of shrug that off, but one tentatively discusses it, realising he's on shakey ground, but admitting it's part and parcel of his business. Also, when asked how much of the money they give the women, each pimp emphatically and unflinchingly states "none whatsoever".

Also very funny in points too.

 

[Dillinger4]

Blood Meridian. Its a fictionalised account of the exploits of the Glanton Gang on the Mexico border in the late 19th century.

I have been considering this on and off for quite a while. I had been put off for ages because I didn't really enjoy The Road. I do know that they are probably pretty different. But I have had it recommended to me by a few people recently, so I am going to go and put it in my Amazon basket.

 

[Orang Utan]

Why? People do fucked up shit, and sometimes dogs leave horrible things on the carpet, who wants to read about that?

I fucking do! What makes people do horrible things is a fascinating subject

 

[Orang Utan]

That's a brilliant book, but I don't know if it fits Clyde's bill. I thought it was more about obsession, grief and a relentless pursuit for truth and/or gratification. Not sure that constitutes 'evil' as such.

Ellroy's an ace writer. Can't recommend him highly enough. I think I've read everything he's written. The LA Quartet are the best crime novels ever written, imo.

Agreed

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've read the Levi,

Have you read Moments of Reprieve and, more particularly, the Drowned and the Saved? The latter includes an imagined debate with another Auschwitz survivor, Jean Amery, who killed himself. Given that Levi also killed himself soon after writing the book, it has extra poignance. The Drowned and the Saved is an uncompromising book. Even at a distance of four decades, Levi was still grappling to come to terms with what happened to him. I thoroughly recommend it.

 

[panpete]

two fiction books, not relevant, edited, sorry.

 

[Orang Utan]

Have you read Moments of Reprieve and, more particularly, the Drowned and the Saved? The latter includes an imagined debate with another Auschwitz survivor, Jean Amery, who killed himself. Given that Levi also killed himself soon after writing the book, it has extra poignance. The Drowned and the Saved is an uncompromising book. Even at a distance of four decades, Levi was still grappling to come to terms with what happened to him. I thoroughly recommend it.

I don't think so, I've read The Periodic Table, If Not Now When and If This Is A Man. All very illuminating and humane examinations of cruelty, violence and tyranny

 

[Kanda]

Is this about them not letting you change your username?

 

[Orang Utan]

Yes, I wanted to change it to Ripper

 

[Orang Utan]

"The last girl" by Penelope Evans.
A British first novel that opens a claustrophobically creepy window into the mind of a madman as plausible as John Fowles's Collector. Old Larry Mann, apparently at loose ends since his wife Doreen left him 1 years ago and he retired from his job as a locker attendant at the Camden baths, lives for his small victories: his daily power struggles with his busybody landlady Ethel Duck; his cringing self-righteousness in his dealings with Doreen's brother Harry and her daughter June, his last wavering ties to the outside world; his invincible respectability in wearing his hairpiece night and day; and - since her arrival in the second-floor flat - his oppressive attentions to university student Amanda Tyson. Though Amanda, inoffensive, lonely, and all too easily bullied, plainly wants to be left alone, old Larry grinningly insinuates himself into her life, showering her with gifts of fruit, cigarettes, a lavish tea, and a clock radio; letting himself into her flat to check on her things; intercepting messages from the lover he's convinced is married and the parents who don't deserve to be put back in touch with their daughter. At the approach of Christmas - a season the neighborhood has special reason to welcome with foreboding - old Larry's ministrations rise to a demented pitch; but his voice, fastidious in its lower-class vulgarity, remains petrified in wheedling self-justification. And despite the horrific climax you know is waiting under the holiday wrappings, it's this narrative voice, seductively repellent in its Uriah Heep cadences, that's the real triumph of Evans's debut. A little masterpiece of smirking evil. Ruth Rendell can retire secure in knowing she's passed the torch.
"Let's go play at the Adams'"
by Mendal W Johnson.
"Mr. and Mrs. Adams are travelling abroad for ten days. While away, they have left Miss Barbara, a wholesome, athletic twenty-year-old, in charge of their house and children. The first several days go swimmingly. Barbara is a firm but loving babysitter to Cindy and Bobby Adams. She feels comfortable peacefully ruling over the rich, country farmhouse while their parents are away. Unfortunately, the children have other plans for the babysitter.

With the help of neighborhood children Dianne, John, and Paul, the children take control of the Adams' household. Calling themselves the "Freedom Five," the children tie Brabara to her bed. They hold her hostage, binding her hands and legs. With a gag taped in her mouth, she can't even call for help. The children govern themselves with adult sensibility, cooking and cleaning for themselves. They interact with Barbara only to feed her bread and water. They lead her to the bathroom with a rope tied around her neck. Barbara tells herself that they will surely release her when they tire of the game.

As the days progress, Barbara gradually begins to lose hope. The children become desensitized to her status as a human being, and they begin to treat her with more cruelty. With their parents due home shortly, each child is forced to face the consequences of their horrible actions. The question quickly becomes: will Barbara survive her stay at the Adams'?"

They may seem, on the surface like trashy novels, but they are both much, much darker.

Not really interested in novels about that sort of thing unless they're by Pat Barker or Dostoievsky

 

[panpete]

Yerr, I see, thats's why I cut them.

This wiki article on the Shadow could be a good point to go from.

I, myself, am interested in the phenomenon of repression and evil.

 

[Echo Base]

I have been considering this on and off for quite a while. I had been put off for ages because I didn't really enjoy The Road. I do know that they are probably pretty different. But I have had it recommended to me by a few people recently, so I am going to go and put it in my Amazon basket.

Its brilliant. Personally I think THE ROAD is McCarthy's weakest book.

 

[beatrix]

The Shoemaker: Anatomy of a Psychotic - Flora Rheta Schreiber

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shoemaker-Psychotic-Flora-Rheta-Schreiber/dp/014007063X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230676803&sr=1-2

 

[DJ_SnitchNbitch]

My Dark Places

James Ellroy's autobiographical account of the psychological impact of his mother's sordid murder (when he was aged 10) on the rest of his life.

Basically it lead to him descending into a life of drug and alcohol addiction where, as an adolescent obsessed with violent sex crimes against women, he toyed with Nazism and started firstly to voyeur women through their windows and subsequently, when off his face on drugs, used to break into their homes to steal used underwear that he would sniff and masturbate with.

It's a very courageous and unflinching examination of how a combination of emotional trauma, unresolved grief and powerful ambivalent / Oedipal feelings towards his mother affected his unconscious world and very nearly resulted in him becoming a very dangerous person.

Thankfully he attended AA meetings and became a renowned novelist instead of descending further along a path that probably would have ended up with him becoming a sex attacker or serial killer.

It also, IMO, shows just how closely the impulse to attack aggressively and destroy can be linked to the impulse to rescue and reparate.

from the book

"I knew things about us. I sensed other things. Her death corrupted my imagination and gave me exploitable gift. My mother gave me the gift and the curse of obsession. It began as curiosity in lieu of childish grief. It flourished as a quest for dark knowledge and mutated into a horrible thirst for sexual and mental stimulation. Obsessive drives almost killed me. A rage to turn my obsessions into something good and useful saved me. I outlived the curse. The gift assumed its final form in language."

That rings a bell because when I was in school, I knew a guy who's mum had been killed violently in front of him and he hated women with revolting gusto. What is it with having your mum die at a young age that makes boys hate women? You'd think the reverse would be true, woudn't you? (And yes this is a bit of a tangent, but I had to ask)

 

[panpete]

Maybe, the hatred and anger of women, cover the sadness and grief over losing a special woman in your life.
Sadness and grief, are the other side of the axis to anger.
In our culture, males do, not show sadness, so often project their feelings as anger towards women, i.e. they identify with the aggressor, who brought about the murder.

I may be wrong, but that line of thinking makes sense to me.

 

[purplex]

Please Grandad, Not In The Face

A ha ha ha dick

 

[panpete]

'The Ice Man' by Phillip Carlo, about deceased serial killer and Mafia hitman Richard Kuklinski, is well worth a read.

I just watched a good 45min video with a psychiatrist interviewing him. today.

from this thread, also from todayesterday on a similar topic. (I aint got to bed yet, so its still toay )

 

[MysteryGuest]

I think these might be of interest:

Violence Workers


The Lucifer Effect: How Good People Turn Evil



Only flicked through them in Borders so I don't know if they're exactly what you're looking for - though I reckon they are. Actually this Borders (Oxford St) had a couple of other proper, non-sensationalist books in there about people being 'evil' but I can't remember the titles - perhaps if you pop in there and have a rummage round the psychology/psychotherapy section you'll find them. Except you may well not, as you won't read this post anyway, coz you've flounced. You daft sod.

 

[MysteryGuest]

Oh, and

Rethinking Evil

I do hope you're going to come back you silly sausage.

 

[MysteryGuest]

A ha ha ha dick

I haven't read that one - is it good?

 

[Pieface]

I fucking do! What makes people do horrible things is a fascinating subject

I have one I'll lend you that might fall into this category. It's about the Raft of the Medusa - Gericault's painting of the shipwreck and the raft that was abandoned and drifted for nearly 2 weeks. Only 15 out of 150 or so survived the raft.

 

[sojourner]

Lord of the Flies by William Golding is an excellent read.

and continuing in the same theme, deadkidsongs by Toby Litt. read this recently and think it's sort of what you're looking for

 

[panpete]

Oh, and

Rethinking Evil

I do hope you're going to come back you silly sausage.

Not to hijack the thread, but I was reading a website, a couple of weeks ago, about the lucifer effect.
It's a complete mystery to me, why I didn't think to post it on here ???
Can't blame drink or drugs, as there ainto been none.


This thread has also given me something as well, though, and I think, like the above post, the lucifer effect info will interest Left Turn Clyde.

 

[Diamond]

*bump*

I'm just reading If This Is A Man by Primo Levi at the moment. I bought it earlier this week when it sort of hit me, despite having studied the holocaust and other nasty things, that there were so very many people involved in its implementation and that that is just very difficult to square with human nature.

So I was interested when seeing this thread and reading through it. No one really makes any justification for reading these sort of books or wanting to know about people doing very bad things.

I was wondering whether the impulse of curiosity, morbid or otherwise, that drives the attraction of these books is not too far off the areas of the mind that allow people to do very bad things.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

I've had Les Bienveillantes - the Kindly Ones, in translation - recommended to me and it sounds up your alley.

 

[the button]

The Bible. Maybe not the whole thing, but Joshua and Judges are pretty much non-stop smiting.