butchersapron
Bring back hanging
theft of an state!
Bonkers eco-terrorism article in the Guardian
- Thread starter Matt S
- Start date
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
It's not an evasion at all, we're supposed to be discussing activism and I made it clear I'd never inform on people who had done an action. Seems pretty simple to me. I'm perfectly happy to withhold any and all information from the plod regarding other activists and their activities.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
What was Walter Wolfgang doind that could be interpreted as terrorist?
Icelandic banks?
Trainspotters?
Some kid taking photos?
equating occasional direct action against property with terrorism is fucking nuts.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Fair enough, that's the answer you want to give. I still think you're evading the question, but I would take from what you say that you would report a crime you came across if it affected you in your personal life, or possibly if it affected a stranger, unless it was perpetrated by an "activist". That sounds like the kind of thinking that let Gerry Healy get away with his crimes for so long.
I do hope that people question that attitude in real life, away from internet discussion boards where you need to sound all "right on2 in order to fit in, and that if you really did come across an instance of terrorism being planned or perpetrated you would report it.
You don't have to tell us, though.
david dissadent
New Member
This is terrorism
This is terrorism
This is a demonstration.
This is terrorism
This is a demonstration.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
I answered the question, a question on a thread related to activism. I've never informed on a fellow activist and I never would for anything they did that was involved with direct action. Anything related to an act of direct action is between me and the activists concerned. I routinely withhold information that could get other activists arrested, questioned or even imprisoned. I've done it before, I'll continue to do it and I'll continue to be proud of protecting the security of myself and my colleagues for as long as is necessary and to whatever degree I personally deem fit.
And I make absolutely no apologies for that.
And if you define terrorism and direct action as being the same thing then you're either ignorant beyond belief and need to take a look at a dictionary, or you're working hand in glove with the State and are a menace to be outed and shunned for the touting grass that you are.
david dissadent
New Member
Peddling a view that would be a hard sell in the Spectator let alone on U75
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Good question. He did nothing that contravened the anti terrorist laws. He was expelled from the conference at the instructions of the chair according to common law, and a cop detained him in error, and under a flawed understanding of the law. Mr Wolfgang received an apology, and was subsequently elected by the Party membership to the NEC.
The action against the Icelandic banks was taken in the light of a public announcement by the Icelandic government that it would withhold compensation from UK customers, while Icelandic customers would be compensated. The UK government used powers contained in the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 to freeze the British assets of Landsbanki by virtue of the fact that the Treasury reasonably believed that "action to the detriment of the United Kingdom's economy (or part of it) has been or is likely to be taken by a person or persons." Unless explicitly stated, the name of an Act does not limit the powers expressed within it. The Act does not say "terrorism-related action to the detriment of the United Kingdom's economy". They really ought to put these powers in a bit of legislation with a cuddlier title - save a lot of fuss all round.
No idea. Kids should be encouraged to take more photos.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Thing is that's exactly what nuLabour did. They conflated what objectively is criminal damage, about as dangerous to life and limb as some scallies smashing up a phone booth, with blowing people up on the tube or sawing some poor bastard's head off on video. You really have to ask yourself exactly why they would do something like that, which is not only a revolting insult to the memory of people killed by real terrorists but which savagely criminalises a wide range of political activists who wouldn't dream of harming another human.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I agree. Painting the word "blair" on a chimney isn't really terrorism.
This comes close to terrrorism, though, in that it involves the use of violence against industrial plant to damage it in order to try coerce the company and its directors to disinvest from an industrial facility. Since the impact of their crime, if they were successful, would be to further damage the economy of and depopulate a vulnerable part of the country, I take particular exception.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
They did that with the ridiculous SOCPA laws which, by the way, are routinely flouted on a regular basis. And they seem to be moving against the climate camps and environmental activists as well these days. They tried to smear the last Climate Camp at Kingsnorth by claiming we had a stash of weapons they found, which could have belonged to anybody but they tried to smear us in particular. There was also the vastly oppressive and entirely politically-motivated policing at the last Climate camp, which included the use of riot gear, pepper spray, batons and riot shields, and the theft of large amounts of people's property and camp infrastructure by police, the only real effect of which was to make people at the camp even more radicalised and anti-police than they were before.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
LIke the violence that you were happy for your 'chums' to commit time and time and again.
It's an asburd thing debating this with supporters of war criminals.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
Isn't it just. If Fullyplumped is happy to support war crimes then he/she will be quite happy, obviously, to be a tout and to support just about anything. I'm willing to bet that if a war went nuclear and we started throwing Trident missiles about then Fullyplumped would be scrabbling around trying to justify that as well.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Instead of running around doing "actions" why don't the environmental activists direct their energies and intelligence to talking to ordinary citizens, engaging us with their ideas, and trying to persuade us rationally that the views they espouse are correct and that we should support radical changes in the way we live our lives and organise the economy?
The main reasons are that they are a tiny minority, they despise the vast mass of citizens as sheep who are hostile to their ideas and incapable of making the changes they want us to make. Or worse, we quite like driving cars and taking planes on holiday and burning electricity.
Also, going camping with like minded chums and shouting at policemen and dressing up as clowns is FUN. Certainly more fun than boring politics.
The main reasons are that they are a tiny minority, they despise the vast mass of citizens as sheep who are hostile to their ideas and incapable of making the changes they want us to make. Or worse, we quite like driving cars and taking planes on holiday and burning electricity.
Also, going camping with like minded chums and shouting at policemen and dressing up as clowns is FUN. Certainly more fun than boring politics.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Us? 
david dissadent
New Member
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
It's quite a leap you've got me making - from defending rural communities against people who want to turn them into tourist traps, and justifying the reporting of crimes, to supporting war crimes and justifying the deployment of Trident.
Would anyone here have reported Gerry Healy to the cops?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's quite a leap you've got me making - from defending rural communities against people who want to turn them into tourist traps, and justifying the reporting of crimes, to supporting war crimes and justifying the deployment of Trident.
Would anyone here have reported Gerry Healy to the cops?
You are the healy in the room you clown.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
Imbecile. The environmental movement comes in many forms, from the electoral approach of the Green Party to the direct action work done by Earth First!, Climate Camp and other. There's a whole spectrum of activity going on so it's not one-dimensional the way you seem to be making it out to be.
And taking on fully equipped riot police when they're using batons and pepper spray, as they did at the Climate Camp, is not what I'd call 'fun' either. It's sometimes necessary to take on the police, but it's not something that's done for a laugh.
It's quite a leap you've got me making - from defending rural communities against people who want to turn them into tourist traps, and justifying the reporting of crimes, to supporting war crimes and justifying the deployment of Trident.
Would anyone here have reported Gerry Healy to the cops?
You're a soulless, careerist Nu Labour hack, no better than a Trotbot blindly supporting the SWP CC (whom I despise with equal venom). You'd support just about anything the Labour Party did and wouldn't have any scruples about doing so either. Your party has committed war crimes, your party has forced through the replacement of Trident, I have yet to see you stand up and be counted on either issue.
Why is it always the New Labour stooges - Plumped, Nick Cohen, Ian Mcewan et al - who are _obsessed_ with Healy and/or the SWP? Most of the rest of the population have never heard of either.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Nonsense. It must be great fun, to judge by the stories afterwards.
Not true! I had some very stern things to say about the proposed development in the Botanic Gardens in Glasgow, and I have fundamental reservations about current party policy on social care services.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I'm not obsessed with Mr Healy. What I am interested in is the way that people in a movement so often cover up and condone crimes committed by a comrade, and only expose them when there 's a political advantage in doing so. The case of Gerry Healy was a good example. I was seeking to show how this was close to the position that Bakunin was putting forward, that ye dinnae grass.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well....you're the one whose ex-leader should be on trial for war crimes. Half a million dead Iraqi civilians.
But I see you've "sternly spoken out" about some development in the Botanic Gardens - so that's alright then.
i thought that you were arguing that property damage is terrorism
make your fucking mind up
what do you reckon would have happened to him if hed just got pissed and slashed a few tires - conditional discharge maybe
if you cant see how frightening it is fp that if you break a window for political reasons your more likely to go to jail than if you break someones face for a laugh then really you must be a bit thick
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Fullyplumped
"He did nothing that contravened the anti terrorist laws."
He was held under them though, might that indicate a problem to you? What was he doing that could be possibly interpreted as terrorism? Your call.
"a flawed understanding of the law"
Yes, there's rather a lot of them with terror legislation. Deliberately and otherwise.
"Mr Wolfgang received an apology, and was subsequently elected by the Party membership to the NEC."
Buy a bunch of doublethinkers trying to pay their way out of a guilty conscience and embarrasement I should think. The same people who never held anyone in the party accountable for the Iraq lies.
Mr Wolfgang is deft in the craft of doublethink himself, holding a senior position in CND and being on the NEC of a pro-nuke, pro-war, party that places corrupt arms dealers above the law. As a member of CND I find that disgusting, and his position an embarrasment/
"Anti-terrorism,_Crime_and_Security_Act_2001"]Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001"
yes. this is a standard blag of the apologists on occasions like this.
The legislation was brought in to deal with terrorism. It is almost exclusively referred to as anti terror legislation by establishment and media. Then when loads of people are detained for nothing to do with terrorism, some wags might pipe up "its not just about terrorism"
doublethink.
"No idea. Kids should be encouraged to take more photos."
Not in Labours Goon Squad Britain Comrade.
http://tinyurl.com/64vtz5
"He did nothing that contravened the anti terrorist laws."
He was held under them though, might that indicate a problem to you? What was he doing that could be possibly interpreted as terrorism? Your call.
"a flawed understanding of the law"
Yes, there's rather a lot of them with terror legislation. Deliberately and otherwise.
"Mr Wolfgang received an apology, and was subsequently elected by the Party membership to the NEC."
Buy a bunch of doublethinkers trying to pay their way out of a guilty conscience and embarrasement I should think. The same people who never held anyone in the party accountable for the Iraq lies.
Mr Wolfgang is deft in the craft of doublethink himself, holding a senior position in CND and being on the NEC of a pro-nuke, pro-war, party that places corrupt arms dealers above the law. As a member of CND I find that disgusting, and his position an embarrasment/
"Anti-terrorism,_Crime_and_Security_Act_2001"]Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001"
yes. this is a standard blag of the apologists on occasions like this.
The legislation was brought in to deal with terrorism. It is almost exclusively referred to as anti terror legislation by establishment and media. Then when loads of people are detained for nothing to do with terrorism, some wags might pipe up "its not just about terrorism"
doublethink.
"No idea. Kids should be encouraged to take more photos."
Not in Labours Goon Squad Britain Comrade.
http://tinyurl.com/64vtz5
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
No, just repeating what the law says.
Property damage is terrorism in our law where the damage is serious, and it is carried out in order to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.
Write that down somewhere. You may find it useful in the future.
fucking lacky
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
The cop was wrong. Cops sometimes make mistakes. He probably won't do it again.
I really don't think the members of the party who voted for Mr Wolfgang to sit on the NEC were motivated by guilt! I didn't vote for him because he's a tankie.
CND is not the organisation it was, certainly.
To be fair, Iceland wasn't detained for very long, and as far as I know is out free. With a massive loan in its pocket from the Bank of England and the IMF.
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