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'Bombers were going to target pubs, clubs and gas supplies...'

JHE said:
That depends what you mean by 'discussing'. There are of course laws about plotting to plant bombs (for example). Recordings of conversations are evidence - and you pretty much concede that by suggesting, rightly, that it may lead to further evidence - and it should be admissible in court.

I believe that the rule against using such evidence in court is pretty peculiar to this country.

These people are charged with – amongst other things - conspiring to cause explosions which is pretty much discussing terrorist acts. There are no practical reasons why wiretaps aren’t used in court trails, video evidence; testimony from witnesses; documentary evidence via email, typed and handwritten notes; and most obviously taped interviews and conversations are all fine. Incitement to murder, racism violence etc are all based in part on the evidence of what people say.

The only reason offered by the Government is that under advice form the Security Services - I wonder why? - they have decided not to allow it.

Paul
 
scott_forester said:
The only reason offered by the Government is that under advice form the Security Services - I wonder why? - they have decided not to allow it.
Yes. It's odd, isn't it?

Do MI5 etc think that if such recordings became admissible in court, the plotters would become more cautious in what they say on the phone etc? Surely people who want to commit such serious crimes are going to be very cautious anyway.
 
JHE said:
I believe that the rule against using such evidence in court is pretty peculiar to this country.

I'm not sure it is "a rule".

UK courts (properly) require a "chain of custody" for any evidence presented to them. I thought the problem was that those who do bugging have always refused to provide this - ostensibly for fear that it compromise the secrecy of their operations.

I suspect that other reasons for refusing to provide evidence on how intercepts are obtained are to maintain some mystique about bugging, and to avoid any risk of revealing how much "intelligent" activity is farcial. As I type "mystique" it strikes me that the Secret Service is probably as keen to keep the police in the dark about what it does as it is us; and that there are probably other internecine feuds to consider.

I seem to remember proposals for using intercept evidence in court that boil down to appointing someone who can stand up on behalf of the security services and say "yes yeronner it's kosher".
 
wiskey said:
would anybody actually miss bluewater?? :confused:
IRA blowing up Manchesters vile Arndale Centre led to one of the best regarded examples of regeneration in the city for decades!
 
editor said:
How about you try reading my post properly before pontificating?

I haven't made any "judgements". I've reported what's on the BBC.

Would that be the same B.B.C. that reported that Jean De Mendies ( of stockweLl fame) was :
1.Wearing a bulky jacket.
2.Jumped the barries at the tube station.
3.Failed to comply with " police instructions"
4. Was directly involed in the terrorist operation....
?????????????????????????????????eh?
 
cemertyone said:
Would that be the same B.B.C. that reported that Jean De Mendies ( of stockweLl fame) was :
1.Wearing a bulky jacket.
2.Jumped the barries at the tube station.
3.Failed to comply with " police instructions"
4. Was directly involed in the terrorist operation....
?????????????????????????????????eh?
What's that got to do with your incorrect claim that I was making "judgements", wriggler?
 
lostexpectation said:
now they are claiming that they wanted to buy a nuclear bomb, whats the bets they over-egg this case and ruin it.
If the alleged Islamonuts were plotting mass murder, why would they not want a "radio-isotope bomb"? The prosecution has not claimed that they had any success at getting one.


Beeb: Terror trial evidence continues
 
JHE said:
That depends what you mean by 'discussing'. There are of course laws about plotting to plant bombs (for example). Recordings of conversations are evidence - and you pretty much concede that by suggesting, rightly, that it may lead to further evidence - and it should be admissible in court.

I believe that the rule against using such evidence in court is pretty peculiar to this country.
sorry are you suggesting that anyone who say's summit about blowing up buildings on a telephone should be hanged for terrorism?

awaits the first GTA inspired lynch mob trial for daring to talk about such things....

sorry but real evidence as in accountable, proveable and above all credible and pertainent can be obtained as a result of wire taps however it is still not under any circumstances a reason to say that wire tap information is evidence. Frankly this is the old if you have nothing to fear argument rehashed and it's still not a vaild one. now or ever...
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
sorry are you suggesting that anyone who say's summit about blowing up buildings on a telephone should be hanged for terrorism?
Let's leave the question of hanging out of it. (I'm agin it, as it happens.)

Of course people's conversations can be evidence of plotting. It all depends on what's said.

I gather that you have some idea of evidence that excludes what people say to each other - or at least what they say on the phone. How odd!

Your third paragraph is so incoherent, I despair of us understanding each other.
 
warren said:
The terrorist/insurgent/freedom fighters were just so stupid and badly organised it was impossible to for law courts to convict them.
People need to remember that there is a big decision taken in every proactive operation as to when to swoop and arrest everyone.

You start off with some information / intelliigence which suggests something may be happening. On that basis you launch some form of surveillance, initially a bit of background research and a bit of a look see. Lots of jobs die at that stage - the research and quick look see either removes any initial suspicions or, at least, does not bolster them in any way.

In a few jobs the initial suspicons increase and then a more extensive information gathering phase is entered. Conventional surveillance is stepped up and perhaps technical surveillance is involved. More and more information is gathered and you reach the point where there is sufficient evidence of a conspiracy (in this case a conspiracy to cause explosions). Usually some of that evidence is inadmissible (i.e. you know you will not be able to use it in Court (because it either reveals the identity of an informant who would then be endangered (the authorities have to respect the informants right to life as well as the suspects and everyone else's Human Rights) or it has come from a phone tap (which means that in the UK iit cannot (by law) be used in evidence)).

You now have the difficult decision. If you arrest now, you protect the potential future victims - you disrupt the network, you seize the explosives, or whatever. But will you be able to convict the suspects? It's usually less than clear cut - evidence of a consipracy - because it does not catch the suspects red-handed - can always be portrayed as something else by the time Court arrives. It is nooriously difficult to convict people of conspiracy (and the sooner you swoop, the more potential holes there will inevitably be in the evidence). If you do not convict them then they will be released. That means they MAY go on to conspire again and commit further offences in the future, but this time with an awareness of how they got caught and, hence, be far more difficult to catch again, so next time they may get away with it and unknown people may be killed.

But if you don't swoop, keeping up the surveillance until you have got them red-handed, you run a very big risk of something going wrong. perhaps you will lose them. perhaps the technical equipment will malfunction. Perhaps they will strike before you thought they were going to because there is a piece of the jigsaw you don't know. And then you have people die when you could have stopped it.

In conventional crime (like the armed robbery I used to deal with) the authorities can allow things to run at a much lower risk, because even if a armed robbery does take place it is very rare for shots to be fired, people to be killed, etc. That is clearly not the casse with a potential explosion. With the IRA there was a little more predictability about what they were doing and several lorry bombs were allowed to be put together, primed and even driven towards targets before being intercepted.

But with Islamic terrorist groups there is far, far less predictability and hence the authorities will tend to swoop sooner rather than have ANY risk of (e.g.) a repeat of 7 July or ricin being released in central London or whatever. This means the evidence of conspiracy WILL be thin. And there WILL be a chance that the defence will be able to portray it as a terrible misunderstanding and the suspects MAY be acquitted (or possibly even not charged at all).

But what would you rather the authorities did?
 
JHE said:
I believe that the rule against using such evidence in court is pretty peculiar to this country.
Yes, the UK is pretty much out on a limb on this one. The Interception of Communications Act 1985 (I think) precludes any evidence from telephone intercept (no matter how lawfully authorised) being used in evidence (or even being referred to). As I understand it, this was meant to stop the bad guys finding out that phone calls were intercepted! If that ever was a reasonable argument, it certainly isn't now. Almost everyone (even the Bar Council) http://www.barcouncil.org.uk/document.asp?documentid=2989&languageid=1 wants the rule changed (except the idiot spys who still think no one knows we do it! :rolleyes: ).
 
rutabowa said:
i like to subscribe to "innocent until proven guilty" theory.
If that was meant as an answer o the question I posed, then it doesn't really answer it. Innocent until proven guilty is at the heart of the dilemma - to get to the point where you can PROVE guilt you have to allow them to continue their conspiracy for longer and run the risk of proving their ill-intent by actually seeing them blow something up. Don't run that risk, and intervene earlier and you must accept that you may NOT be able to prove guklt and hence they just walk away.
 
has there ever been a case where a "terrorist cell" has been under surveillance, been suspected, but not arrested, and then gone on to do something bad because they weren't arrested in time?
 
I think it is good that they are being put on trial. This is, after all, what I (and many others) have been arguing for. Much better than just locking them up or putting them under house arrest because a trial would be too difficult. Let the jury decide.

If I were on the jury, I would be wanting to know whether they were talking in the theoretical or the actual. If they sat down and said: "What would you blow up", that's not what I would call hard evidence, but if they said: "We have these tons of fertiliser, which building shall we blow up and when", then that is rather serious evidence.
 
detective-boy said:
The Interception of Communications Act 1985 (I think) precludes any evidence from telephone intercept (no matter how lawfully authorised) being used in evidence (or even being referred to). As I understand it, this was meant to stop the bad guys finding out that phone calls were intercepted!

Ah, I was wrong. Bloody stupid thing to legislate.

Do you happen to know what the Bar Council proposals on chain of custody for such evidence are?
 
rutabowa said:
has there ever been a case where a "terrorist cell" has been under surveillance, been suspected, but not arrested, and then gone on to do something bad because they weren't arrested in time?
Don't know of any on UK mainland off the top of my head but I am aware of some "near misses" and I suspect there have been. There are certainly examples in Northern Ireland I have heard of over the years.

And there have certainly been serious "traditional" criminals on the mainland who have - I know more about armed robbers than others and there have been many examples (including a gang of armed robbers including Gary Nelson, the geezer recently (and eventually) convicted of murdering PC Patrick Dunne in Clapham years and years ago).
 
laptop said:
Do you happen to know what the Bar Council proposals on chain of custody for such evidence are?
Haven't seen any specific proposals on the chain of custody (I prefer the term "continuity") for the product of intercept. But I would not anticipate any problem. Automatic electronic provision within the recording euqipment should/would be set up with time/date stamp, audit trails, etc. just like any other digital system (e.g. digital CCTV recordings). Any analogue or digital copies made (tapes, discs, etc) could be handled just like any other piece of physical evidence, with records of who has possession, tamper-evident packaging, exhibt numbers, etc. And transcripts would be identified as being from specifically defined exhibits.

Do you have any particular potential problem in mind?
 
detective-boy said:
Automatic electronic provision within the recording euqipment should/would be set up with time/date stamp, audit trails, etc. just like any other digital system (e.g. digital CCTV recordings).

Modern PSTN networks do timestamp the voice streams if you want them to. But even if it didn't you'd have to be very clever to forge an analouge voice signal that would stand up to any serious investigation.
 
scott_forester said:
But even if it didn't you'd have to be very clever to forge an analouge voice signal that would stand up to any serious investigation.
Sadly that fact doesn't stop the defence making the allegation if they haven't got any genuine issues to raise :( :(

* Remembers two days at Crown Court with the defence alleging that (VHS) CCTV footage their client (which he had even accepted in interview was him) had been forged (not even in a "This was all staged with actors" style but a "This is basically genuine footage but it has been played about with so it looks like our client is doing something he didn't" sort of way), all based on the fact that there was a break in the continuity of the original VHS tape because an officer left it (sealed in a tamperproof bag) on the desk of a collegaue instead of physically handing it to him ... :rolleyes: ) *
 
detective-boy said:
Do you have any particular potential problem in mind?

Not really.

Of course, if I were a defence brief and such evidence were produced, I'd have a damn good go at probing the chain of [whatever] - if only out of curiosity and a desire to watch the appointed Geek X from the security services squirm behind their screen :D

Bit like the way Colonel "B" (Hugh Anthony Johnston) was unmasked - briefs asking precisely what were his qualifications to expound on security matters, quick trip to Imperial War Museum Library...

I suspect the bigger obstacle is sheer bloody-mindedness from said services. As you say, they can't seriously believe that the existence of intercepts or ways of communicating securely despite them are secrets. The geese are flying south early this year.
 
We shouldn't forget the plot to blow up Old Trafford either. That was a good one.

One awaits further details in the trial but my initial impression is that there seems to be no 'smoking gun' here if indeed any sort of gun. I'd be very wary of interpreting isolated quotes where one does not know the context.

for instance, pk has many times on these boards, as a matter of public record, expressed a wish to kill George Bush, amongst others. By these standards he could be executed in the USA if he ventured to do some gardening.

And yes, would blowing up Bluewater really be such a bad thing? I can say that without fear because I'm not a muslim, perhaps.

Another question I have is... when the police foil these sorts of operations, isn't it normally important for them to wait until the plan is put into action so they can catch the crew red-handed? Why did that not happen here, especially as there would be no risk to anyone?
 
Jazzz said:
One awaits further details in the trial but my initial impression is that there seems to be no 'smoking gun' here if indeed any sort of gun.
Don't tell me. 7/7 was an inside job too, eh?

:rolleyes:
 
well sorry for not immediately joining your string-em-up club. I could quite easily see a situation in which say I'd taken possession of a sizeable quantity of fertiliser, and then joking discussed with friends where to blow up, couldn't you?

In fact, I have been in possession of a large quantity of food grade hydrogen peroxide, which - get this - I'd obtained under the pretence that it was for a cleaning company. I can assure you the actual purpose of this was entirely unremarkable, but again, thankfully I'm not muslim, and we aren't worried about the IRA any more. Now I can't remember but I could well have joked to friends on the phone about where to blow up.

Of course, the police wouldn't have actually found anything like a detonator, perhaps? Have they found something like that here?
 
I'm not saying I have a clear idea about this case. I just don't think anyone else does here, certainly not yet.

I would also be very suspicious about this chap who appears to be playing quite a role. Is he blowing the whistle on them, or could he have set them all up?
 
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