Bob Dylan - I just don't get it

[fanta]

Shane MacGowan

I think he is brilliant, actually...

 

[Major Tom]

Paul Weller

Cor fuck me - if you think Weller is a better song-writer than Dylan then you've got fucking problems.

 

[fanta]

Paul Weller

Also, brilliant...

But the idea that Dylan is not a gifted songwriter who has produced great songs is just silly.

Still, there is no accounting for taste...

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Cor fuck me - if you think Weller is a better song-writer than Dylan then you've got fucking problems.

I think there's definitely cultural/geographical issues about the two... growing up in Romford in the eighties and nineties every lad under 35 seemed to be a Weller fan... whereas for Bob Dylan *cough*... blood hippy tambourine rubbish!

I think Dylan is a case of having to have been there to appreciate him... maaaannnnn...

Add: By which I mean, I don't think his music has aged very well.

 

[poet]

I take it you are not much of a folk afficionado.

You're obviously not if you think folk music is about what instruments you play or whether you've got a finger stuck in your ear and a pint of real ale. It's about song that speaks for the people, it's about taking on tradition and mixing it with a bit of yourself. If folk music doesn't evolve it becomes stale and irrelevant, some pointless museum piece. The traditional songs the folk snobs treat with such reverence changed and evolved as they were passed on - one of the things I enjoy most about folk song is that the oral tradition means you can work out the lineage of a song by how it's sung. Folk by definition is song by and for the people, if it loses its relevance it ceases being folk and becomes pointless nostalgia. There's a reason that so many folk clubs can't get young people in the door while at the same time loads of young people are getting into traditional song - this snobbish, puritanical attitude is a massive turnoff. I've got a mate who plays absolutely stunning versions of cavalier ballads electrically, he can go into a school and play these 300 year old songs to a bunch of schoolkids who don't even know what folk music is and get them enthused about it, yet gets endless disrespect from so many people in folk because he dares to play a modern instrument.

People forget that Dylan never went electric, he went back to it - he played electrically before he became famous and went back when he was comfortable enough and thought people were ready for him to change.

 

[fanta]

Paul Weller

Oh, by the way, have you heard Paul Weller's album Studio 150 in which Weller does a cover version of 'All Along The Watchtower' originally penned by an obscure songwriter who goes by the name of, er, Bob Dylan?

You can even listen to it here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002SPQ3Q/103-4356552-3383869?v=glance

 

[Major Tom]

I think Dylan is a case of having to have been there to appreciate him... maaaannnnn...

Add: By which I mean, I don't think his music has aged very well.

I grew up in the 80s and was a massive Jam and Style Council fan. But it doesn't stop me appreciating Dylan.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I grew up in the 80s and was a massive Jam and Style Council fan. But it doesn't stop me appreciating Dylan.

Yeah... I listen to loads of music from the Dylan period... just listening to some Fred Neil - a folk artist from the same time...

But there is something about Dylan that really hasn't aged well... can't put my finger on it. Then again maybe he was overrated re:shit then and still is now.

 

[fanta]

I don't listen to electric Dylan.

How do you know if it is any good then?

 

[redsquirrel]

Add: By which I mean, I don't think his music has aged very well.

Have to totally disagree with this. As well as constantly doing new versions of his old songs there are hundreds of people who have covered his songs.

EDIT: Which links in with poet's post.

 

[Dirty Martini]

You're obviously not if you think folk music is about what instruments you play or whether you've got a finger stuck in your ear and a pint of real ale. It's about song that speaks for the people, it's about taking on tradition and mixing it with a bit of yourself. If folk music doesn't evolve it becomes stale and irrelevant, some pointless museum piece. The traditional songs the folk snobs treat with such reverence changed and evolved as they were passed on - one of the things I enjoy most about folk song is that the oral tradition means you can work out the lineage of a song by how it's sung. Folk by definition is song by and for the people, if it loses its relevance it ceases being folk and becomes pointless nostalgia. There's a reason that so many folk clubs can't get young people in the door while at the same time loads of young people are getting into traditional song - this snobbish, puritanical attitude is a massive turnoff. I've got a mate who plays absolutely stunning versions of cavalier ballads electrically, he can go into a school and play these 300 year old songs to a bunch of schoolkids who don't even know what folk music is and get them enthused about it, yet gets endless disrespect from so many people in folk because he dares to play a modern instrument.

People forget that Dylan never went electric, he went back to it - he played electrically before he became famous and went back when he was comfortable enough and thought people were ready for him to change.

Good post

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Have to totally disagree with this. As well as constantly doing new versions of his old songs there are hundreds of people who have covered his songs.

I was thinking more of his actual recordings then his contemporary stuff or covers...

 

[tobyjug]

People forget that Dylan never went electric, he went back to it - he played electrically before he became famous and went back when he was comfortable enough and thought people were ready for him to change.

Pardon, where did you get that pill of wisdom from. Before anyone had heard of Dylan he had a bit part in a BBC Play for Today and he was not playing an electric guitar in that.

 

[redsquirrel]

I was thinking more of his actual recordings then his contemporary stuff or covers...

OK but then if it's the recordings that haven't aged well (in your opinion, I'd totally disagree) but the songs have, doesn't that make him a pretty good songwriter?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

OK but then if it's the recordings that haven't aged well (in your opinion, I'd totally disagree) but the songs have, doesn't that make him a pretty good songwriter?

It's not just the quality of the recordings it's the whole Bob Dylan "thing" - songwriting, attitude, folk sensibility/seriousness, haircut - the whole Bob Dylan package... in my opinion.

 

[zed66]

It's not just the quality of the recordings it's the whole Bob Dylan "thing" - songwriting, attitude, folk sensibility/seriousness, haircut - the whole Bob Dylan package... in my opinion.

I can understand this totally. But ideally shouldn't music be judged on it's own
terms without taking into account all the background PR and bullshit that accompanies any artist? I rate Paul Weller as a songwriter but still see him as overly pretentious, particualrly from Wild Wood onwards. The question arises, what Dylan albums have you listened to?

Is your problem with Dylan the person or with the music? Some references to albums you disliked and why might be helpful and more specific.

 

[changingman]

One thing that has always bugged me is the slavish adulation that Bob Dylan seems to attract... and I simply don't understand why.

At last !! A soulmate.. Me too. He can't sing, he can barely play guitar, and he CERTAINLY can't play the harmonica.
And his songs are too full of words, which don't make sense.

He was never (and he's said this himself) a "protest singer" either. People have simply projected onto him their fantasy of what they wish he was.

Have to confess I did enjoy reading Chronicles Vol 1 though. A good read..
And too many people have said this upcoming Scorsese TV documentary is the best music docco ever... i've booked a place on the settee for both nights.

 

[poet]

Pardon, where did you get that pill of wisdom from. Before anyone had heard of Dylan he had a bit part in a BBC Play for Today and he was not playing an electric guitar in that.

His autobiography.

 

[redsquirrel]

At last !! A soulmate.. Me too. He can't sing, he can barely play guitar, and he CERTAINLY can't play the harmonica.
And his songs are too full or words, which don't make sense.

The "can't sing" thing is always mentioned and IMO it's nonsense. I'm not going to pretend that he has a great voice but the emotion he gives his songs is fantastic (see Idiot Wind, Sara, Its Alright Ma, Ballad in plain D). It's one of the reasons why I prefer his versions to most cover versions of his songs.

He was never (and he's said this himself) a "protest singer" either. People have simply projected onto him their fantasy of what they wish he was.

Cobblers, he was a protest singer in his early days. How committed he was to those beliefs can be debated but I really don't see how you can say he wasn't a protest singer. And his statements to the contary are IMO just Dylan being Dylan.

 

[miss giggles]

I was absolutely nuts about Bob Dylan. It was never really about his music as such, but his lyrics. I nicked a book of his lyrics when I was bunking off school one day and ended up writing my own poetry. I think if you don't really get him, try reading his lyrics as a pose to listening to them. He really does write some beautiful poetry.

 

[poet]

Cobblers, he was a protest singer in his early days. How committed he was to those beliefs can be debated but I really don't see how you can say he wasn't a protest singer. And his statements to the contary are IMO just Dylan being Dylan.

He was most deifinitely just reflecting the zeitgeist - he made comments at the time to indicate that he was just reflecting what was going on at the time. He sang protest songs but certainly wasn't a protest singer.

 

[Orang Utan]

He should be a poet - the music is shit and his voice is horrible, so I guess the only thing you can salvage is the lyrics. So stick em in a book, Bobby.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I was absolutely nuts about Bob Dylan. It was never really about his music as such, but his lyrics. I nicked a book of his lyrics when I was bunking off school one day and ended up writing my own poetry. I think if you don't really get him, try reading his lyrics as a pose to listening to them. He really does write some beautiful poetry.

Agreed, his lyrics are superb. My personal favourite are those from 'Its Alright Ma' (amazing tune and still very relevant!)

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not forget
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.

.........

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.

http://bobdylan.com/songs/itsalright.html

 

[goldenecitrone]

If you don't understand Dylan, you just don't understand life. Sorry.

 

[William of Walworth]

A side issue ....

I'm ambivalent about Dylan, while recognising his genius, so count me as a detached observer in this debate.

But just wantd to pick up on thios :

You're obviously not if you think folk music is about what instruments you play or whether you've got a finger stuck in your ear and a pint of real ale.

I'm very much a nu-folk type who has a very broad definition of what good folk music can be, but :

1. Is there any evidene that trad fok singers EVER put their finger in their ear? I've been going to the Cambridge Folk Festival for years and have NEVER seen anyone do it. Or in pub folk sessions either!
2. Real ale isn't just for old, trad, boring folkies -- admittedly they know how to drink the ale dry at the CFF and elsewhere but plenty of non folkies/non trad folkies like it too -- a lot! Yet you use it as an implied insult

And being part of CAMRA's Rapid Cliche Refutation Unit, I'll fight anti-ale prejudices wherever I see them!

 

[William of Walworth]

Dylan appreciated a pint himself, in London folk clubs and pubs when he first visited in winter 1962. According to the Observer Music Supplement last Sunday, anyway ...

 

[changingman]

The "can't sing" thing is always mentioned and IMO it's nonsense.

Come on - you can't even BEGIN to compare him to the likes of Bobby "Blue" Bland, Junior Parker, Al Green, Nat King Cole, Paul Rodgers and, my fave of all, Sugar Ray Norcia. Those guys are SINGERS..
Dylan just whines (ditto Van Morrison. Wrong, he shouts as well as whines. And barks a bit too).

I really don't see how you can say he wasn't a protest singer.

Well even if he was (and I still say he wasn't) what was the point if his lyrics couldn't be understood by 99.5 percent of the population? It's not as if i'm stupid.. i passed my 11-plus and got a degree from a white-tile university and everything..

 

[redsquirrel]

He was most deifinitely just reflecting the zeitgeist - he made comments at the time to indicate that he was just reflecting what was going on at the time. He sang protest songs but certainly wasn't a protest singer.

Well that depends on your defintion of protest singer. Mine would be someone who writes/sings protest songs.

 

[redsquirrel]

Come on - you can't even BEGIN to compare him to the likes of Bobby "Blue" Bland, Junior Parker, Al Green, Nat King Cole, Paul Rodgers and, my fave of all, Sugar Ray Norcia. Those guys are SINGERS..
Dylan just whines (ditto Van Morrison. Wrong, he shouts as well as whines. And barks a bit too).

I don't think technical ability is the only thing thta makes a great singer. Personally I like Dylans vocals, they give his songs a lot of emotion and make them distinctive.

Well even if he was (and I still say he wasn't) what was the point if his lyrics couldn't be understood by 99.5 percent of the population? It's not as if i'm stupid.. i passed my 11-plus and got a degree from a white-tile university and everything..

Can you give examples? I can't think of many of his protest songs that aren't relatively simple (for him anyway).

 

[changingman]

I don't think technical ability is the only thing thta makes a great singer. ).

No it's not. What those guys all have is SOOOUUUUL!!! By the bucketload.

Can you give examples? I can't think of many of his protest songs that aren't relatively simple (for him anyway).

I'm not that familiar with his oeuvre to be honest. just the sound of his whining voice and squeaking gobiron put me off. I'll get me coat....

i agree with the other person who said if you can write good lyrics but can't sing put 'em in a book.
i wouldn't bother buying the book though.