BNP seat in London Assembly - 1 in 20 voters voted BNP

[ViolentPanda]

It is up to people to make the fascism obvious?

And you accuse others of being obtuse.

While there is an overlap between Nazism and Fascism, the one isn't synonymous with the other, and my point about railing against "the Nazi BNP" (a slogan beloved of the swappies) still stands. Call them "the fascist BNP" by all means, it's accurate, calling them "the Nazi BNP" and associating them with nazi iconography, even though they've deliberately moved their politics and image away from that, is emotive and ultimately pisses politically-concerned people off. It's the usual Swappie tactic of bigging up a threat so they can provide their own (half-arsed and ineffective) "solution" to it. We don't need to be worrying about Nazism, we do need to continue to worry about fascism.

 

[TremulousTetra]

And you accuse others of being obtuse.

While there is an overlap between Nazism and Fascism, the one isn't synonymous with the other, and my point about railing against "the Nazi BNP" (a slogan beloved of the swappies) still stands. Call them "the fascist BNP" by all means, it's accurate, calling them "the Nazi BNP" and associating them with nazi iconography, even though they've deliberately moved their politics and image away from that, is emotive and ultimately pisses politically-concerned people off. It's the usual Swappie tactic of bigging up a threat so they can provide their own (half-arsed and ineffective) "solution" to it. We don't need to be worrying about Nazism, we do need to continue to worry about fascism.

I don't think anyone would argue that you are factually and semantically incorrect, but when you are involved in a discourse where people commonly refer to Tony Blair as a fascist, I think it is appropriate to fall into the common vernacular. also, as somebody has already pointed out, politicals pedantically arguing about such issues spoils the proper debate, on the proper issues. give some poetic licence.

BTW and the BNP actually Euro-fascists? so shouldn't the SW "front organisation" be called Unite Against Euro-fascism?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

ALL that is highly debatable, and I would be quite happy to discuss it. but when I can't get to you and Butch to answer a very plain and simple question, it does make it seem a little pointless trying to understand your views on more complicated issues.

"(or were all those 200,000 Londoners who voted for them unaware of the label?)." do you talk to the BNP members? do you listen to what they have to say? do you talk to BNP voters? do you listen to what they had to say? if you want me to I will PM you the links where they deny they are a fascist.

What is highly debateable? That nazism is not a vote winner? That fascism isn't the vote loser it used to be?

Pretty much all the people who vote BNP must be aware that the party is regularly called fascist. It doesn't seem to have put them off putting their crosses next to the BNP name. So either they don't believe it or they don't care about it. As a tactic it hasn't worked very well; therefore another is needed, such as addressing the concerns which move people to vote BNP, but doing so from a pro-working perspective, rather than a euro-fascist or neo-liberal one.

 

[TremulousTetra]

What is highly debateable? That nazism is not a vote winner? That fascism isn't the vote loser it used to be?

Pretty much all the people who vote BNP must be aware that the party is regularly called fascist. YES It doesn't seem to have put them off putting their crosses next to the BNP name. YES but also DEBATABLESo either they don't believe it YES but they are not homogenous.lots of the ones I have spoke to refuse to believe they are a fascist or they don't care about it.a very tiny hardcore minority As a tactic it hasn't worked very well;erm imo debatable.it certainly hasn't stopped the growth, But that isn't the only factor involved in the decline or growth of a fascist movement. therefore another is needed, YES such as addressing the concerns which move people to vote BNP, but doing so from a pro-working perspective, rather than a euro-fascist or neo-liberal one.

I really don't understand how you can remove the fundamental causes, without removing capitalism.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=7464432#post7464432
if you want to explain to me how you can do this,feel free.it is to answer that question I came to this forum four five years ago. people like butchers in particular never even attempt such discussion, concentrating on attacking what everybody else does. sorry, that's my opinion.

 

[audiotech]

Very nice.

What does it have to do with the BNP?

BNP members name drop the subject of the drawing now and again. Some have it tatooed on their chest.

 

[exosculate]

What do you lot expect - with the assault on the white/settled non-white working class by unrestricted immigration impacting disproportionately on the poor.

A response is likely - no?

The left really are like ostriches!

 

[audiotech]

What do you lot expect - with the assault on the white/settled non-white working class by unrestricted immigration impacting disproportionately on the poor.

A response is likely - no?

So let's hear your response, or how you think the left should respond?

 

[butchersapron]

First, do no harm.

Just stop. Recognise that you and people like you need to stop.

You've been proven wrong.

 

[audiotech]

And you accuse others of being obtuse.

While there is an overlap between Nazism and Fascism, the one isn't synonymous with the other, and my point about railing against "the Nazi BNP" (a slogan beloved of the swappies) still stands. Call them "the fascist BNP" by all means, it's accurate, calling them "the Nazi BNP" and associating them with nazi iconography, even though they've deliberately moved their politics and image away from that, is emotive and ultimately pisses politically-concerned people off. It's the usual Swappie tactic of bigging up a threat so they can provide their own (half-arsed and ineffective) "solution" to it. We don't need to be worrying about Nazism, we do need to continue to worry about fascism.

The SWP are accused time and time again of not taking the threat of the BNP seriously on here. Do make your minds up.

Next time I'm on a demo I'll make sure the correct terminology is used.

 

[audiotech]

First, do no harm.

Just stop. Recognise that you and people like you need to stop.

You've been proven wrong.

Stop protesting and campaigning against fascism because it's wrong is an absurd position to take.

 

[gorski]

You guys should remove chips from your shoulders [the size of Manhattan!!!] and LEARN HOW TO COMMUNICATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JTG]

So let's hear your response, or how you think the left should respond?

"asylum seekers welcome here"

 

[gorski]

@Butch and the lot...

This is way tooooooooooooo macho bullshityyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Testosterone driven to da bone... skuze da pun...

 

[durruti02]

Now, call me mean but I think it would be possible to attack them in an area where they are weak and keep them small - prevent the disease spreading.

go on then .. theres enough in your backyard

( dramatic increase in spread and no. of votes in the north east wasn't there?)

 

[The Black Hand]

go on then .. theres enough in your backyard

( dramatic increase in spread and no. of votes in the north east wasn't there?)

The example I used was Wolverhampton where there were only 2 candidates. They do have a base in the north east true, although their average vote is circa 12%.

 

[The Black Hand]

I refered to the thread not because of any dry academic debate it contained but rather the pictures. You are still hugely missing the point; while nazism is not a vote winner, it would appear that fascism is increasingly no longer a vote loser (or were all those 200,000 Londoners who voted for them unaware of the label?). So calling the BNP nazis, when they are not, and calling them fascists to place them outside acceptable politics, when it doesn't, seem to be not the most useful tactics.

But Louis people do vote for those with a chance of winning to make their vote count. The BNP have no chance of winning overall, and keeping them in their marginalised status is a good thing no?

 

[TremulousTetra]

This is way tooooooooooooo macho bullshityyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Testosterone driven to da bone... skuze da pun...

thank you. I suppose you would include me in that criticism, and I wouldn't blame you. what bugs me about revolutioneir than thou idiots is

*applauds*

I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them

is that they would rather have a tiny movement with "pure thoughts" like themselves, than a mass movement with some people who may disagree with them.

 

[durruti02]

The example I used was Wolverhampton where there were only 2 candidates. They do have a base in the north east true, although their average vote is circa 12%.

so why have you always said the north east is a bnp free area? .. 12% is pretty high in my book

 

[durruti02]

But Louis people do vote for those with a chance of winning to make their vote count. The BNP have no chance of winning overall, and keeping them in their marginalised status is a good thing no?

they are NOT marginalised in the w/c .. FFS thats the point .. they have become legitimate in w/c peoples eyes whether they vote for them or not .. and i suspect many people who would like to vote bnp do not as yes they do not think they will win ..

 

[The Black Hand]

thank you. I suppose you would include me in that criticism, and I wouldn't blame you. what bugs me about revolutioneir than thou idiots is is that they would rather have a tiny movement with "pure thoughts" like themselves, than a mass movement with some people who may disagree with them.

Totally agree comrade.

 

[The Black Hand]

they are NOT marginalised in the w/c .. FFS thats the point .. they have become legitimate in w/c peoples eyes whether they vote for them or not .. and i suspect many people who would like to vote bnp do not as yes they do not think they will win ..

You wrote "they [BNP] have become legitimate in w/c peoples eyes whether they vote for them or not". I do not accept this, where is your evidence?

You wrote this too; "and i suspect many people who would like to vote bnp do not as yes they do not think they will win". You are reversing what I said to promote your own position, it's a way to be I suppose, but that (as you indicate) is not based on any evidence and is your projection. I prefer Marxism myself

 

[The Black Hand]

so why have you always said the north east is a bnp free area? .. 12% is pretty high in my book

There are no BNP councillors in the North East, that is why its BNP free. In Co Durham they have a base in Chilton, Tudhoe, and Spennymoor (an area you could call greater Spennymoor). In Sedgefield they did very badly. Helen Goodman MP - go see her site, has recently set up an all party united front for the area against the BNP, including the SWP.

 

[gorski]

So much personal, macho bitching in the movement, jockeying for positions, who knows more, who's bigger etc.

And the whole thing then suffers... We've seen it so many times, from the WWs onwards.

The Socialist movement has a lot to learn, still... Sadly!!

 

[The Black Hand]

So much personal, macho bitching in the movement, jockeying for positions, who knows more, who's bigger etc.

And the whole thing then suffers... We've seen it so many times, from the WWs onwards.

The Socialist movement has a lot to learn, still... Sadly!!

Agreed. Why they want to carry on as they are is a mystery. they can't open up to public involvement and debate, they are happy in their cult/faction.

 

[gorski]

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fOa5ufPmc&feature=related

 

[treelover]

the comments I have head my nephews teenage friends come out with and their overt support for the BNP, speaks volumes

so why have you always said the north east is a bnp free area? .. 12% is pretty high in my book

 

[The Black Hand]

the comments I have head my nephews teenage friends come out with and their overt support for the BNP, speaks volumes

Have you seen some of the social networking sites other than myspace? Try bebo.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The SWP are accused time and time again of not taking the threat of the BNP seriously on here. Do make your minds up.

Next time I'm on a demo I'll make sure the correct terminology is used.

As usual you miss the point. Whether that's deliberate or not, I don't know.
There's a big difference between "spinning" a threat to use it to your own advantage or "bigging up" a threat so that you can make political (and financial) gains from it, and "taking it seriously".
"Taking it seriously" means defining the issue correctly, and then acting to resolve the issue, not railing against "Nazis" and relying on gestures like the LMHR concert. It means seriously long-term grass-roots commitment and a willingness to act outside of diktat when necessary.

 

[audiotech]

As usual you miss the point. Whether that's deliberate or not, I don't know.
There's a big difference between "spinning" a threat to use it to your own advantage or "bigging up" a threat so that you can make political (and financial) gains from it, and "taking it seriously".
"Taking it seriously" means defining the issue correctly, and then acting to resolve the issue, not railing against "Nazis" and relying on gestures like the LMHR concert. It means seriously long-term grass-roots commitment and a willingness to act outside of diktat when necessary.

I take your point now there's some flesh on it, but LMHR was no gesture. It looked to me as there was a serious attempt to get a new generation of young people on side, who would go back to their local areas and build local groups, in a similar way thet RAR did.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I take your point now there's some flesh on it, but LMHR was no gesture. It looked to me as there was a serious attempt to get a new generation of young people on side, who would go back to their local areas and build local groups, in a similar way thet RAR did.

The problem being that you only get people "on side" in any meaningful way by listening to their concerns and assisting them in acting on them, and I'm unconvinced (given 30 years of experience of the SWP and it's various hydra-heads) that this'll happen, rather than the usual appropriation of the cause and it's adherents for the SWP's own political purposes.