BNP on BBC Question Time in October

[butchersapron]

What proportion of the electorate is likely to be BNP symathisers?

Does that mean they could get a single MP elected?

If not, then why are we worried?

Again, who are 'we'?

The BNP outpolled all other parties in 3 constituencies when the ward votes were added up after the local elections in 2008. They would likely have done the same in two Stoke seats if more wards were contested (That's Searchlights's view). That's not say they'll win those seats though - nor that they won't, just to highlight that no far right party has ever been this close to getting an MP.

 

[CyberRose]

What proportion of the electorate is likely to be BNP symathisers?

Does that mean they could get a single MP elected?

If not, then why are we worried?

It's not necessarily about current support but potential future support should they succeed in getting their message out to the public and increase their support

 

[fela fan]

This needs to be very carefully thought out by those who are on the programme and oppose the BNP. The worst thing that could happen is they get some anti-fascist idiot on who makes Nick Griffin sound like Einstein! Griffin needs defeating with a silver tongue and cold hard facts that disprove his ideas. If, on the other hand, we get someone on who thinks that insulting fascists or encouraging Muslim youths to riot is the way to defeat them then we're fucked because the average viewer is gonna warm to the BNP who will look good at the side of them. I hope the BBC also realise this and don't make any mistakes when inviting other guests onto the show...

this of course exposes politics for what it really is: doing the right thing for the image, not for the substance. So long as it looks good, or sounds good, then that is the objective.

I don't know too much about the bnp except that it seems to be deeply racist. How can it appeal to anybody who is not racist? Surely its supporters are only those people who are racist, and believe in divisive methods for the planet's peoples?

If your 'average' viewer could warm to the bnp, then i'm not really sure what that says about such people. Nothing good though.

What QT needs on that programme with griffin is non-politicians. Then griffin would no doubt be exposed for the divisive person he is. Get him off his terms of debate. Use non-politics to expose the crap he represents.

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

Meaningless answer. Incluldes a false oppostion, a staright up contradiction, a refusal to say who 'we' includes and an implict (unsupported) assumption that this unstated group is the majority.

If all you want to do is chop logic with me, you yourself have abandoned the pursuit of meaning in so far as it relates to the real world....

The false constituency that I'm presuming to refer to in 'we' was perhaps a misplaced optimism in the belief that many of us are against the BNP to the point where we will oppose them and make life as difficult as possible for them to promote their cause (within the constraints of the law, naturally).

This includes trying to avoid giving them a stage on national television.

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

Again, who are 'we'?

The BNP outpolled all other parties in 3 constituencies when the ward votes were added up after the local elections in 2008. They would likely have done the same in two Stoke seats if more wards were contested (That's Searchlights's view). That's not say they'll win those seats though - nor that they won't, just to highlight that no far right party has ever been this close to getting an MP.

clearly 'we' is often used on these boards to refer to an assumed anti-racist, anti-fascist group of like-minded people.

Why do you object to such an assumption? I'm sure 99% of people on this forum would claim to be against the BNP. So 'we' is used quite fairly....

 

[butchersapron]

I suggest you read a few more of the threads on the BNP in this forum first then before making such assumptions - then ask why some of us who have been in involved in anti-far right activity for many many years are asking who this 'we' includes, who these decent chaps actually are -and why an opposition based on top down bureuacratic manouveres carried out by the establishment is no opposition at all.

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

I suggest you read a few more of the threads on the BNP in this forum first then before making such assumptions - then ask why some of us who have been in involved in anti-far right activity for many many years are asking who this 'we' includes, who these decent chaps actually are -and why an opposition based on top down bureuacratic manouveres carried out by the establishment is no opposition at all.

If you point me in the direction of these threads I'd be interested to read them.

 

[London_Calling]

clearly 'we' is often used on these boards to refer to an assumed anti-racist, anti-fascist group of like-minded people.

Why do you object to such an assumption? I'm sure 99% of people on this forum would claim to be against the BNP. So 'we' is used quite fairly....

'We' implies a constituency, a number of similar minded people who, becasue they are numerous, further validate your position - my claim is more valid because it's shared with a number of other people . . . So, how many are there in your 'we', is it large enough that 'we' should care, because my 'we' is also pretty numerous.

Is your we bigger than my we? It's exposed as daft pretty quickly. Speak for yourself.

 

[butchersapron]

If you point me in the direction of these threads I'd be interested to read them.

Sure i'll edit some in at the end of this post in a second, but first, just to add to my above point though - a good chunk of the BNP's electoral support comes from those alienated, disgusted and pissed off at the political establishment, people wanting to kick them where it hurts. Adopting a strategy that involves leading roles for that same establishment (or establishing and highlighting the 'anti-fascist majority' in tired UAF/HnH lingo) is very likely to prove not only ineffective but counter-productive. In fact, it has already proved so. It also allows those polticians and establishement movers who've put in the place the conditions that are producing the BNP some nice anti-racist cover to hide behind. It's an approach almost designed to fail to challenge those conditions in favour of pretending we're all one big happy democratic family. That's why who 'we' are is very important.

Give up anti-fascism?

Griffin and BNP strategy

BNP seat in London Assembly - 1 in 20 voters voted BNP

Searchlight/Lowles proposals for future anti-BNP campaigning

Are all BNP voters racist?

BNP is splitting....!

BNP membership list has been put online

Stop the BNP's Nazi rally in Derbyshire on Saturday 15 August (Discussion)

 

[butchersapron]

One other thing, the Labour Party will definitely give up its commitment to not appearing with the BNP due to the good votes the BNP have been picking up in C1/C2 areas, which tend to be the swing vote areas.

 

[N_igma]

We are not amused.

 

[rikwakefield]

The BNP have every right to be heard. You shouldn't have to agree with their policies to see that censoring them, or anyone, is wrong.

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

When I said 'we' it was supposed to refer to 'people that are opposed to the BNP and would like to see them fail in their attempt to gain popular support'.

I would like to think that covers lots of people, from those working in the civil service through to the private sector.

I'm not trying to talk on behalf of others. But I am talking on the assumption that everone here (in this forum) is against promoting the BNP.

I don't think that's too sweeping a generalisation.....

 

[audiotech]

And you've totally sidestepped the question of the BNPs success - or at least agreed that they've been able to use an alternative strategy to achieve success, yet in 1998 they were nowhere - so they changed. They achieved success by coming up with and then applying on a consistent sustained basis an alternative strategy.

The BNP have changed into suits?

As I see it, they don't seem to have had a political conversion on the road to Damascus, or Tripoli as in Griffin's case. Therefore, they are the same politically and have the same strategy as they always have.

I'll accept that they changed tactically, as they were forced to by the activities of AFA, but what is this "alternative strategy" as you see it?

It appears that you're confusing strategy with tactics here?

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

Sure i'll edit some in at the end of this post in a second, but first, just to add to my above point though - a good chunk of the BNP's electoral support comes from those alienated, disgusted and pissed off at the political establishment, people wanting to kick them where it hurts. Adopting a strategy that involves leading roles for that same establishment (or establishing and highlighting the 'anti-fascist majority' in tired UAF/HnH lingo) is very likely to prove not only ineffective but counter-productive. In fact, it has already proved so. It also allows those polticians and establishement movers who've put in the place the conditions that are producing the BNP some nice anti-racist cover to hide behind. It's an approach almost designed to fail to challenge those conditions in favour of pretending we're all one big happy democratic family. That's why who 'we' are is very important.

Give up anti-fascism?

Griffin and BNP strategy

BNP seat in London Assembly - 1 in 20 voters voted BNP

Searchlight/Lowles proposals for future anti-BNP campaigning

Are all BNP voters racist?

BNP is splitting....!

BNP membership list has been put online

Stop the BNP's Nazi rally in Derbyshire on Saturday 15 August (Discussion)

Thanks for the references.

 

[Awesome Wells]

It's all well and good educated and aware people on here talking, but the masses are more easily swayed and arrogance won't stop the BNP being seen as legitimised by this nor will it dissuade those who watch or tune in possbly buying into the lies Griffin and co spin on the show.

 

[butchersapron]

The BNP have changed into suits?

As I see it, they don't seem to have had a political conversion on the road to Damascus, or Tripoli as in Griffin's case. Therefore, they are the same politically and have the same strategy as they always have.

I'll accept that they changed tactically, as they were forced to by the activities of AFA, but what is this "alternative strategy" as you see it?

It appears that you're confusing strategy with tactics here?

No, it appears that you're confusing long term aim with strategy. Either way, they changed how they operate and have become the most succesful far-right party in this countries history at the same time. maybe the two are totally unconnected though? What do you think?

 

[London_Calling]

It's all well and good educated and aware people on here talking, but the masses are more easily swayed and arrogance won't stop the BNP being seen as legitimised by this nor will it dissuade those who watch or tune in possbly buying into the lies Griffin and co spin on the show.

Or it might be that "the masses" are more exposed to the impact of immigration than the "good educated and aware people on here". By exposed I mean their income has been driven down, their school classes are fuller, the housing list has got longer, etc, etc.

It's not just about "the masses" believing lies, an awful lot of people have been exposed to the cost of what they consider to be too much immigration; for them it's real, every day in their pockets, affecting their families, in their life.

For many around here, that's the difference between voting UKIP and BNP.

 

[audiotech]

No, it appears that you're confusing long term aim with strategy. Either way, they changed how they operate and have become the most succesful far-right party in this countries history at the same time. maybe the two are totally unconnected though? What do you think?

That strategy is a long term aim obviously.

 

[butchersapron]

It's all well and good educated and aware people on here talking, but the masses are more easily swayed and arrogance won't stop the BNP being seen as legitimised by this nor will it dissuade those who watch or tune in possbly buying into the lies Griffin and co spin on the show.

Fuck me, it's Nietzsche come back to save us.

 

[weltweit]

I cannot get too excited about the BNP because I think even with legitimacy they cannot go far. Immigration is mainly EU people coming here and that is tied in with the European single market. We cannot exclude ourselves from this unless we leave Europe and I cannot see that happening.

So the most I can see the BNP doing is picking up a few seats here or there and never growing more than that. For that reason I am not excited about them, not enough to try to do anything about it anyhow.

Does that make me a bad person?

 

[treelover]

Oh dear, the patronising Platonic idea that most people are easily led and cannot make rational decisions and need superior beings, in this case the UAF ( such as head SWP honcho Martin Smith, the 50 year old mod retread saddo) and the liberals at Searchlight don't make me laugh!

Blimey, i thought you were on the Left, its the old and patronising Platonic idea that most people are easily led and cannot make rational decisions and need superior beings, but how can in this case the UAF( such as head SWP honcho Martin Smith, the 50 year old mod retread saddo) and the liberals at Searchlight be the purveyors of such knowledge,


Don't make me laugh!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Are you ever going to provide any evidecne or support for your ridiculously generalised opining claim above? This must be about the 7th time i've asked you to. Not even going to bother with the crude 'generate mass spectacle' nonsense.

Don't have to reach back to the April / May effort. Can you remember the last time a possible appearance on QT was made big news some weeks before it happened?

The BBC broke this as a story in news bulletins across the network . It is disproportionate reportage, as is their coverage of fascism generally.

 

[weltweit]

So, can anyone tell me, what do the BNP really stand for?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I heard they're not too fond of foreigners. Will this do?

 

[butchersapron]

Don't have to reach back to the April / May effort. Can you remember the last time a possible appearance on QT was made big news some weeks before it happened?

The BBC broke this story. It is disproportionate reportage, as is their coverage of fascism generally.

Can you remenber the last time a party that had never appeared on there that had long been associated with racism and the far-right was invited on for the first time ever? When was that? Maybe just maybe that's why some media sources have reported it and why there's wider interest?

What do you mean the BBC 'broke the story'? Do you mean they let it be known who was appearing on one of their shows? How dare they! Or what do you mean? Esp given that Darby let the cat out of the bag back in June. And i'm still waiting for that evidence of BBC favouring the BNP - without that it's your usual conspiracy nonsense.

Hey, you didn't post this on LUAF earlier today did you? Sounds like one of yours

There HAS to be BNP sympathisers within the BBC. It's just a case of considering each BBC governer until somebody with extreme rightwing credentials is sussed out as the source of the BBC's sickening pro-Nazi policy.

Edit: and how many undercover, expose/sting operations have the BBC done on parties other than the BNP? How many criminal prosecutions of other parties than the BNP have the BBC been involved in? They've done, what 4 or 5 on the BNP now. How many times have the BBC reported a party other then BNP to the electoral commission? How many webpages exposing the true nature of parties other then the BNP do the BBC carry? Yes, they're well behind the BNP the BBC are.

 

[audiotech]

The BBC 'favouring' the BNP is just nonsense.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

MC5, the change in strategy, or tactics if you want to call it that, it makes no real difference, is that they have not only tried to become more respectful, suits and better public relations, but have also taken to community campaigning and taking on local issues.

Now you know as well as me that they are anti-working class. But it is the hard slog, local campaigning that has brought them success.

This strategy is all but devoid from what a lot of the far left do, where much more resources are put in to grand standing demonstrations and cosying up to union bureaucrats and the mainstream parties through the UAF. A serious attempt to building networks and initiatives in local communities and in the unions is either not done at all, or done through sectarian and dead end means.

There is also the issue that for a long time a lot of the far left failed to attempt to take on the ideas of liberal multiculturalism and even promoted that ideology.

Much of what the far left is doing today, through UAF and HnH is still that kind of dead end way of taking on fascism.

However even for those that accept this, there is still the question that those attempting to build a pro-working class alternative aren't really getting anywhere.

 

[tbaldwin]

I have only met a couple of people who openly said they were considering voting BNP. Their motivation was that they were for controls and curbs on immigration and in their local area the only party that seemed to be saying they were for curbs on immigration were the BNP.

Were they racist, not overtly I don't think, it is possible to be anti immigration and not be a racist.

Being anti immigration is not racist. Yes some racists are anti immigration , not the serious one though they are all very much in favour of migration because they know it makes the world a far more unequal place.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Butchers

I have never described the Beeb as "pro nazi". Nor would I. Are you on commission from the Strawman Foundation?

My case is that the BBC give disproportionate attention to fascism. I imagine a prime reason is down to fascism having an inherently sensationalist element. It's fine for the news editors who can spin a story out of next to nothing because the letters "BNP" are attatched to it. I don't imagine they have to live with the consequences.

Of course Griffins impending appearance is more noteworthy than most snore-a-thon QT guests. But only a bit, it does not warrant being trailed weeks in advance unless news values beyond genuine substance are at play.