Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
Ummm....nah
They wanted the institutions out - they were fighting against British rule.
BNP on BBC Question Time in October
- Thread starter Davo1
- Start date
Ummm....nah
They wanted the institutions out - they were fighting against British rule.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
All I intended to indicate was that Adams & McGuinnis were outcasts from political life so much so that we were not even permitted to hear their real voices for years. Yet with the passing of time they have become acceptable faces in UK politics.
I am not suggesting that Griffin is also a terrorist, no but he is also at the moment outcast from UK political life and yet time is going by and he is becoming (if you believe the article that he will be on QT) more accepted.
Not trying to conflate republicanism and BNP politics at all.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Not really. The law is clear on membership for OB. Tribunals judge on the law, which is quite clear re membership for OB. If there is a Tribunal claim, whatever the outcome, it doesn't set legal precedent (guidance only). The EAT establish legal precedent. So yeah it could be an ongoing wrangle costing the BNP shitloads of legal costs taking it to EAT, and beyond. Not gonna happen, they don't have the money to pursue. Far more likely that they'll leave the OB guy out to dry and focus on the strategic.
This is the issue with the new ruling. A lot of Daily Mail reading types would probably vote BNP if it wasn't for their core racism. IF they have to be changed to allow minorities, but still be in every other way the BNP, their vote will probably shoot up...
hungry 4 kicks
Active Member
....although the logic of 'freedom of speech' dictates that Griffin should have as much right to express him self as everyone else, in reality I believe we should make his life as hard as possible and restrict that right as much as we can as long as we remain 'within the law'.
As a BBC Boss I'd fill the slot with someone else and resist pressure to give him air-time. I'd rather have Lilly Allen or Princess Fergie on there than Griffin.
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/sep/06/bbc-labour-bnp-question-time - interesting to see who the Tories will put up against the BNP on QT.
There's enough mileage out there on the BNPs history and current activities for anyone who didn't go off on one (i.e. ranting) to have Griffin for breakfast.
There's enough mileage out there on the BNPs history and current activities for anyone who didn't go off on one (i.e. ranting) to have Griffin for breakfast.
hungry 4 kicks
Active Member
Even if he gets eaten for breakfast - the net effect of his presence on that programme will be to legitimise the BNP to those racist swing voters. They will not respond to the logic in the arguments that denounce griffin. They will become more comfortable in shouting his cause....it will normalise his stance.....This is not a logical country full of nice people....there's lots of scared angry ignorant people that Griffin is playing like a fiddle.
The same can be said for just about all politicians. It's not just griffin playing them like a fiddle, it's the whole of politics. Bullshitters, liars, criminals, killers, and we continue to accept their legitimacy. Even better, we vote them back in.
I recall question time being one of the few mediums that exposed the charlatans for who they are. Watching them use long weaseling sentences when a single yes or no would suffice. Watching them act out their grand lives of self-delusion.
Griffin will be in good company, they're all sharks.
I agree with your general sentiniments.
(But the bit highlighted in bold.)
I can't recall a time it's ever done that,except vaguely,when Robin Day was around.
Question Time became redundant sooooooooooo long ago !
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
The BBC made a big effort publicising fascist efforts to get elected, so this is a fitting enough outcome. QT is generally a load of reactionary toss anyhow. I very rarely watch it and wont take heed of this episode. The Beeb are in a bind, the twats have a mandate and it is difficult to not have them on at some point. But it will generate mass spectacle and vacuous "debate" for the mainstream to drool over. "racist menace appears on dull establishment show" shouldn't be big news.
Well, the last time i watched it was 2000-01.
What i meant was that people watching could see these politicians beyond their usual soundbites on news and other programmes. And often the non-politician would expose them for the liars and bullshitters they are. I recall one particular one where will self contributed to one of the finest political-putdowns i've seen. It was theatre. Whoever the pathetic politicians were that day, they slunk away in the way they all should leave rooms.
(i think it was him!)
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They might not make any such ruling but the situation and the propoganda opps will be clear. The EHRC took them to court to change a racist constitution, they changed it, therefore they have to recognise (implicitly or explicitly) that they're not racist.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Surely what would be best for the BNP would be for Griffin to be up against current cabinet members who he could easily take shots against and most of whom would come across as 'typical politicians'. But up against other main party figures who are not current cabinet members or even MPs (such as party grandees and the like) I'm not sure Griffin would get the same mileage.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Are you ever going to provide any evidecne or support for your ridiculously generalised opining claim above? This must be about the 7th time i've asked you to. Not even going to bother with the crude 'generate mass spectacle' nonsense.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I'm not sure the BBC is in a bind, as you term it. They can simply play it with a straight bat - Griffin is an MEP with a constituency and a mandate.
The issue is why Griffin has a constituency and a mandate - especialy when UKIP offered some of the BNP's agenda, and to answer that we have to look at the policies of the main party's, particularly the government of the day.
It's not the BBC's role to filter out electoral disenchantment, or protest voting, or whatever it's termed this week.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who the hell are 'we'? Does it include labour, the tories? The royals? Everyone but the BNP?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What on earth makes you think that? That's exactly the attitude that Paxman and Cnmapbell and others went in with and ended up getting shown up to be out of their depth.
hungry 4 kicks
Active Member
'We' being people that are more motivated by opposing the BNP than defending the abstract ideal of 'freedom of speech' in a country where we've pretty much got it.....
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
BNP is invited onto BBC's mickey mouse "debate" programme - so what? The car crash will be if so-called mainstream politicians boycott the show.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Meaningless answer. Incluldes a false oppostion, a staright up contradiction, a refusal to say who 'we' includes and an implict (unsupported) assumption that this unstated group is the majority.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
hungry 4 kicks - do yourself a favour, don't claim a fellow constituency.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
What are the viewing figures for Question Time now days? Have they gone down given what a load of crap it is?
I don't think this will backfire for the BNP because the mainstream politicians are so discredited, especially after the expenses row, that they will be easily taken on by Griffin and a boycott would also lead to lots of BNP publicity. Either way they are on a winner.
Butchersapron you are right to criticise the approach of the UAF type politics, but the fact remains that no alternative strategy is getting anywhere either and shows no sign of doing so.
I don't think this will backfire for the BNP because the mainstream politicians are so discredited, especially after the expenses row, that they will be easily taken on by Griffin and a boycott would also lead to lots of BNP publicity. Either way they are on a winner.
Butchersapron you are right to criticise the approach of the UAF type politics, but the fact remains that no alternative strategy is getting anywhere either and shows no sign of doing so.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Can you clarify "we", please, and explain by what means "we" will do this? You seem to imply the BBC DG is one of "us". If so, then there's your problem right there; that kind of thinking is what gets the BNP elected as MEPs.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, a party using an alternative stratgey, even one largely misapplied and in bad faith, has just been invited onto Question Time after having two MEPs elected. Alternative strategies don't just get outlined and immediately applied that instant - esp when they're opposed tooth and nail by the established mainstream anti-fascist organisations.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
The BNP have used an alternative strategy for success.
Whatever the reasons, and you list some, pro-working class forces have been unable to do so and that shows no sign of changing.
The UAF and other far left forces are totally marginal in society. They can't stop alternative strategies from developing if those strategies took off in any serious way.
Whatever the reasons, and you list some, pro-working class forces have been unable to do so and that shows no sign of changing.
The UAF and other far left forces are totally marginal in society. They can't stop alternative strategies from developing if those strategies took off in any serious way.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Sorry, but all you're doing, as on the other thread, is repeating that we're in a bad state right now. I know that, that's why i've been arguing for alternative strategies - just saying that no alternative strategy has yet blasted the BNP out of the water is no sort of respone to either the situation we find ourselves in or attempts to go beyond them. It's not anything really. It takes the starting point of the approach and turns it totally on its head.
And you've totally sidestepped the question of the BNPs success - or at least agreed that they've been able to use an alternative strategy to achieve success, yet in 1998 they were nowhere - so they changed. They achieved success by coming up with and then applying on a consistent sustained basis an alternative strategy.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
This needs to be very carefully thought out by those who are on the programme and oppose the BNP. The worst thing that could happen is they get some anti-fascist idiot on who makes Nick Griffin sound like Einstein! Griffin needs defeating with a silver tongue and cold hard facts that disprove his ideas. If, on the other hand, we get someone on who thinks that insulting fascists or encouraging Muslim youths to riot is the way to defeat them then we're fucked because the average viewer is gonna warm to the BNP who will look good at the side of them. I hope the BBC also realise this and don't make any mistakes when inviting other guests onto the show...
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Its nothing to do with blasting the BNP out of the water. Some people might be new to these methods and arguments but some of us having being saying this for years and trying to implement different responses. But we haven't got very far.
I might not like the latest IWCA article in some ways, but where it is very right is that success is what counts. We aren't at a starting point, this point of view has been around for years. But we still aren't getting anywhere. Now we can just keep on keeping on, but the lack of success is important. Even if there were some signs of this changing that would be more positive, but there isn't.
I might not like the latest IWCA article in some ways, but where it is very right is that success is what counts. We aren't at a starting point, this point of view has been around for years. But we still aren't getting anywhere. Now we can just keep on keeping on, but the lack of success is important. Even if there were some signs of this changing that would be more positive, but there isn't.
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