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BNP - another close call

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Im not shipping anyone in. Im not sure of the tactic at all. The tories often say we shouldnt mention the fash at all, they may have a point. It's a really hard thing to judge.
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The Tories want the BNP ignored because they want to take the BNP's support intact and unchanged. There are two things going on here that have to be dealt with in different ways. A rise in the incidence of racism and a growth in support for the BNP. These two things are interlinked and interdependent, but we can't beat both by only dealing with one, and not everyone wants to beat both. There are racists who want the BNP defeated, and there are people who welcome votes going to the BNP who aren't racist as such, simply unconcerned by racism either way.

Ignoring them hasn't worked in the past.
 
ericjarvis said:
The real surge in BNP support is post 9-11 riding on the back of Islamophobia. No question about that, but they shouldn't have been in the position to take advantage of it.

The Labour party started taking action against prominent members perceived as too aggressively anti-racist from around 1989. I assume as a reaction to the 1987 general election. The prevailing wisdom being that the far left in places like Lambeth and Liverpool lost the election for the rest of the country, despite the simple fact that it was only in Lambeth, Liverpool, Newham (thanks to Tony Banks) and Croydon NW (thanks to a newly appointed full time agent) that the party increased it's vote.

In 1987 I was able to get a black section leaflet produced as part of Vauxhall Labour Party's election publicity with the approval of the NEC, despite black sections being banned. By 1989 the NEC was prepared to impose a candidate in Vauxhall rather than risk fielding a black candidate in a by election. It's during that period that the Labour Party changed, years before it came into government.

I'm not saying that the social conditions that the BNP take advantage of shouldn't be dealt with. Of course they should. We need to return to being a society that treats everyone with care and respect regardless of their income etc. That's a given. However we've got to deal with the situation we have, and under Thatcher we had an even more divided society, yet from a peak in 1983 the far right were largely driven back into near oblivion, I don't see that we shouldn't be trying to do the same now. That doesn't mean letting the current government off the hook for it's abandonment of the working class and the poor. Just that we don't have to wait to change that before the BNP can be tackled.
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"The real surge in BNP support is post 9-11 riding on the back of Islamophobia. No question about that..."

you are just making stuff up .. there is no evidence of what you say .. (not to say anti muslim extremism is not part of the mix)

you appear to have no recognition of any of the massive social and political changes of the last 30 years ( in which by the way racism has dramatically declined ) that have disempowered the w/c and m/c s
 
The BNP can only do well when the working class are full of hate and are utterly pissed off at a corrupt government that only cares about themselves and big business. Even better for the BNP this time, it's the LABOUR party and not Tories! So the BNP can try to paint the Govt as "lefties" despite them having many policies that are straight out of Hitlers Germany (ie big brother state, destruction of the welfare state etc)
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Not nice. What have you done to stop it? Is there anything you would have done differently?
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Some of us on this board have been anti-fascists for 20-30 years, so when people say "bussing in shouty students doesn't work", we speak from long and bitter experience. Local people hate being patronised, whether it's the likes of UAF or the Swappies, or one of the main two parties.
What works is engagement with the community by the community. Where I lived, we managed to drive the NF pretty much out of our area even though the NF "fuhrer" lived there. We did it by knocking on doors, letting people know what the NF actually represented rather than what they claimed to represent on the doorstep, and by fighting back when they attempted to ambush anti-fascist activists out canvassing.
Parachuting people in for a couple of weeks solves nothing. A community coming together is the basis for solving lots of local problems.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Some of us on this board have been anti-fascists for 20-30 years, so when people say "bussing in shouty students doesn't work", we speak from long and bitter experience. Local people hate being patronised, whether it's the likes of UAF or the Swappies, or one of the main two parties.
What works is engagement with the community by the community. Where I lived, we managed to drive the NF pretty much out of our area even though the NF "fuhrer" lived there. We did it by knocking on doors, letting people know what the NF actually represented rather than what they claimed to represent on the doorstep, and by fighting back when they attempted to ambush anti-fascist activists out canvassing.
Parachuting people in for a couple of weeks solves nothing. A community coming together is the basis for solving lots of local problems.
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I agree with all that, but what of the areas where there are no anti-fascist activists? Where I live I do quite a lot of community stuff, door-knocking etc. but the nazis really aint a threat (though I daresay some in the area will vote for them in the Euros).

There is an organisation in North manchester that isnt UAF, more based on genuine local people. But is it organised enough? I dont know.

I do get the vibe that a lot of "love music hate racism" stuff is self congratulatory but it's also true that the more people we can motivate to vote non-nazi the better.

What is needed on the broad left is honesty and discernment, not constant slanging. That's not something I'm accusing you of but there is evidence of it in these here parts.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I agree with all that, but what of the areas where there are no anti-fascist activists? Where I live I do quite a lot of community stuff, door-knocking etc. but the nazis really aint a threat (though I daresay some in the area will vote for them in the Euros).

There is an organisation in North manchester that isnt UAF, more based on genuine local people. But is it organised enough? I dont know.

I do get the vibe that a lot of "love music hate racism" stuff is self congratulatory but it's also true that the more people we can motivate to vote non-nazi the better.

What is needed on the broad left is honesty and discernment, not constant slanging. That's not something I'm accusing you of but there is evidence of it in these here parts.
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VP is spot on and when you refer to areas where there no activity THAT in itself is the issue .. no amount of bussing people in will change that and as VP says it usually makes things worse ..
 
durruti02 said:
VP is spot on and when you refer to areas where there no activity THAT in itself is the issue .. no amount of bussing people in will change that and as VP says it usually makes things worse ..
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There will always be areas where there is no activity. Many of the anti NF people of 20 years ago are long since inactive.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I agree with all that, but what of the areas where there are no anti-fascist activists? Where I live I do quite a lot of community stuff, door-knocking etc. but the nazis really aint a threat (though I daresay some in the area will vote for them in the Euros).

There is an organisation in North manchester that isnt UAF, more based on genuine local people. But is it organised enough? I dont know.

I do get the vibe that a lot of "love music hate racism" stuff is self congratulatory but it's also true that the more people we can motivate to vote non-nazi the better.
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Which is why it's important to have a "base" that isn't solely constructed around the single idea of "stop the BNP", because such a base is impermanent. Organise for community action across a broad range of issues and you have a structure that's pre-formed and pre-motivated to deal with racism and sectarianism.
What is needed on the broad left is honesty and discernment, not constant slanging. That's not something I'm accusing you of but there is evidence of it in these here parts.
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The problem with the idea of a "broad left" (IMO) is that it attempts to encompass too broad a swathe of opinion, from centrist liberalism to revolutionary communism and Trotskyist vanguardism. It's almost impossible, except under exceptional circumstances, to attain the kind of cohesion necessary to make a "broad left" a serious political entity.
If people wish to continue down the road of parliamentary politics, then what they need to address is the hole left by the Labour party (both it's left and right flanks) post 1974. There needs to be a unified alternative to the neo-liberal consensus, not merely a watered-down version of it.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Which is why it's important to have a "base" that isn't solely constructed around the single idea of "stop the BNP", because such a base is impermanent. Organise for community action across a broad range of issues and you have a structure that's pre-formed and pre-motivated to deal with racism and sectarianism.

The problem with the idea of a "broad left" (IMO) is that it attempts to encompass too broad a swathe of opinion, from centrist liberalism to revolutionary communism and Trotskyist vanguardism. It's almost impossible, except under exceptional circumstances, to attain the kind of cohesion necessary to make a "broad left" a serious political entity.
If people wish to continue down the road of parliamentary politics, then what they need to address is the hole left by the Labour party (both it's left and right flanks) post 1974. There needs to be a unified alternative to the neo-liberal consensus, not merely a watered-down version of it.
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In that the BNP mainly focus on getting people elected, any anti-BNP movement needs to focus on the same system.

Agree with what you are saying about the broad left. Not blowing my trumpet, but I think the Greens are the most cohesive anti-neoliberal force out there. Some might quarrel with that and I may only be laying claim to being the tallest dwarf.

but in fact I dont think an anti-neoliberal party is neccessarily required on the ground. Why cant the libdems clean up in North Manchester with some decent on-the-ground activity? Partly, it is because most of their activists are in the south and they put a lot of effort into just holding what they have.
 
Yeah, the Lib Dems seem to focus on their marginals, especially in areas where Labour have no chance such as rural ones. I saw an interview with a LibDem activist in Coventry who hadn't even been given an election poster to put up, and this was before a general election as well.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
There will always be areas where there is no activity. Many of the anti NF people of 20 years ago are long since inactive.
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no you miss the point .. there is NOT an area in this country where people are not working together to improve the world locally or globally .. (maybe there is no anti BNP camapign) .. often a few individuals but it is this grassroots work that will destroy the BNP .. it is this that we need to recognise and support .. bussing in people to do specific anti bnp work simply does NOT work .. it has been shown over and over

btw did you ever read Colin Ward's 'Anarchy in Action' .. essential reading
 
frogwoman said:
sectarianism.

The left/anarchists need to stop bitching about the problems of the world and each other and start producitvely working together (yes, even with the SWP etc). Part of the problem is that left wing parties are very good at critiquing what's wrong with the world but too much of it is taken over by "revolution" fetishism, the sort of things that freak people out. We don't need violent revolution. We need to fight for achievable change without compromising our values ... and we need to actually put forward an alternative that actually relates to what people need /want ...
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Absolutely right as usual, but they won't listen. Seems they hate each other more than the fash. Sad really. It's why I never really bothered helping them out back when I could have done.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Which is why it's important to have a "base" that isn't solely constructed around the single idea of "stop the BNP", because such a base is impermanent. Organise for community action across a broad range of issues and you have a structure that's pre-formed and pre-motivated to deal with racism and sectarianism.
Click to expand...

spot on .. it is a win win ..

i find it incomprehensible how so few see this .. there is a massive politically progressive 'lowest common demoninator' of agreement out there regarding issues like supportting the NHS, schools, workers in struggle, environmental improvements and CC, housing, defending asylum seekers, fighting racism etc etc etc ..

this grassroots alliance is easyly acheivable yet those who 'control' anti fascism ( searchlight etc) demand we bring into any anti BNP coalition those who create many of the problems to start with, NuLabourites, Tories etc
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
In that the BNP mainly focus on getting people elected, any anti-BNP movement needs to focus on the same system.
Click to expand...
I'd say that you're under-estimating the BNP's willingness to operate a long-term strategy.
If we look at the history of fascism in Britain over the last 100 years, the single largest problem hasn't been support, it's been that fascists have always over-reached themselves, wishing to seize power. One-eye, for all his very obvious faults, realises something that parts of the "broad left" don't, which is that if you build an organisation in a community, from the ground up, it stands a better chance of taking root. That's why the BNP actually try to get onto parish and borough councils, and actually try to hold onto seats, why they're attempting to educate their councillors into doing ward work etc. If their strategy was merely to win seats, they could be easily seen off. As it is, they're gaining strength, and with that they're gaining a (spurious IMO) respectability that normalises their views into part of the political mainstream.
Agree with what you are saying about the broad left. Not blowing my trumpet, but I think the Greens are the most cohesive anti-neoliberal force out there. Some might quarrel with that and I may only be laying claim to being the tallest dwarf.

but in fact I dont think an anti-neoliberal party is neccessarily required on the ground. Why cant the libdems clean up in North Manchester with some decent on-the-ground activity? Partly, it is because most of their activists are in the south and they put a lot of effort into just holding what they have.
Click to expand...
It's also because the alternative they offer (to neo-liberalism), which is "more of the same, but with a few ameliorations", may not appeal to a wide enough base to matter.
 
durruti02 said:
spot on .. it is a win win ..

i find it incomprehensible how so few see this .. there is a massive politically progressive 'lowest common demoninator' of agreement out there regarding issues like supportting the NHS, schools, workers in struggle, environmental improvements and CC, housing, defending asylum seekers, fighting racism etc etc etc ..
Click to expand...
Part of the problem is that the boundaries of our political discourse constrain many people from thinking in terms of a unified or unitary "grass roots" political base from which to proceed. Our political discourse quantifies such things as "anti-capitalism", "anti-fascism" etc etc as "single issue politics" and seeks to negate their applicability to grass roots community politics.
this grassroots alliance is easyly acheivable yet those who 'control' anti fascism ( searchlight etc) demand we bring into any anti BNP coalition those who create many of the problems to start with, NuLabourites, Tories etc
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Thing is, most of those you mention above are out for their own gain, rather than to benefit the like of your or my communities. They seek power through the control of issues, whereas we want to address issues for mutual/community benefit.
 
the previous by -election result in Moston was
The result last time (May 2008):

Labour 1551
Conservative 936
Lib Dem 398
Green 246

given the lib dem rise is probably disffected new labites jumping ship, as ive said before it seems to be the tories the BNP are picking votes up from

most likely disgruntled richard littlejohn lower middle class types rather then the traditional working class

that doesnt make it any less worrying, but i really dont think the bnps support is coming from their traditional base but from the more affluent sections of the working class - ie wc made good, who dont like the liberal dircetion the tories seem to be heading
 
ViolentPanda said:
I'd say that you're under-estimating the BNP's willingness to operate a long-term strategy.
If we look at the history of fascism in Britain over the last 100 years, the single largest problem hasn't been support, it's been that fascists have always over-reached themselves, wishing to seize power. One-eye, for all his very obvious faults, realises something that parts of the "broad left" don't, which is that if you build an organisation in a community, from the ground up, it stands a better chance of taking root. That's why the BNP actually try to get onto parish and borough councils, and actually try to hold onto seats, why they're attempting to educate their councillors into doing ward work etc. If their strategy was merely to win seats, they could be easily seen off. As it is, they're gaining strength, and with that they're gaining a (spurious IMO) respectability that normalises their views into part of the political mainstream.

It's also because the alternative they offer (to neo-liberalism), which is "more of the same, but with a few ameliorations", may not appeal to a wide enough base to matter.
Click to expand...

Interesting points about them having a long term strategy.
Not sure how succesful they will be though.
But the BNP have clearly been a whole lot more succesful in reaching out of their small ghetto of most rabid supporters, than far left groups have.
The growth in their electoral support puts the parties to the Left of Labour to shame.
 
The real surge in BNP support is post 9-11 riding on the back of Islamophobia. No question about that, but they shouldn't have been in the position to take advantage of it.
Click to expand...

If it is because of the above then you need look no furthde then the establishment for this. The events of 7/7, the press parading idiots like "Captain Hook" Hamza all over the front pages, the non-existant Ricin scare, the numerous anti-terrorism raids, laws and press coverage etc. etc. etc.

The Labour party and their media luvvies are the ones responsible for much of the mainstream characterising of Islam/Muslims. This hasn't been helped either of course by a small section of the Muslim community with their protests of "British soliders go to hell" etc. however the Labour party seem to lick arse of some of these "community leaders" who represent nobody but a small group of Muslim community.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Part of the problem is that the boundaries of our political discourse constrain many people from thinking in terms of a unified or unitary "grass roots" political base from which to proceed. Our political discourse quantifies such things as "anti-capitalism", "anti-fascism" etc etc as "single issue politics" and seeks to negate their applicability to grass roots community politics.

Thing is, most of those you mention above are out for their own gain, rather than to benefit the like of your or my communities. They seek power through the control of issues, whereas we want to address issues for mutual/community benefit.
Click to expand...

ok i'm not quite sure what you then are proposing or how it would look .. creating alliances of self interest seems to me the way to bring people together and move onto more communal interest ..
 
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