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Blackwood man faces terrorism charges

Niclas - Out of interest, which one of Plaid Cymru's founders was an anarcho-syndiacalist? Did he write anything about anarcho-syndicalism, as I'd be very interested to read it if so? I know there was a pamphlet about Anarchism written in Welsh in the 1940s as part of the 'Cyfres Pamffledi Heddychwyr Cymru' (Welsh Pacifists Leaftlets Series) which I've never been able to track down a copy of one (it's called Anarchistiaeth by J.Gwyn Griffiths).

One point I'd make about Saunders Lewis and Plaid Cymru is that Lewis distanced himself from Plaid from the forties onwards precisely because he didn't think they were putting enough emphasis on the Welsh language. His 'Tynged yr Iaith' (Fate of the Language) speech, which partly led to the establishment of Cymdeithas yr Iaith (Welsh Language Society) and the campaign of civil disobedience to improve the language's status can be interpreted as a clear dig at Plaid and its leadership for concentrating more on electoral campaigns/success than on the language. Needless to say this pissed a lot of people in Plaid of no end at the time. In fact, Lewis seemed to delight in winding Plaid up as he got older e.g. he wrote sympathetic pieces supporting the Free Wales Army, when Gwynfor Evans etc were unequivocal in their condemnation. The relevant point here is that Saunders Lewis's politicial ideas/development diverged clearly from those of Plaid Cymru from a very early stage. In fact, prominent members of Plaid such as Phil Williams who didn't speak Welsh are far more representative of Plaid's development over the past 40 years than Saunders Lewis.
 
Not sure my few years in Plaid qualifies me to know more about it than you but here goes...
I'm not aware of any Plaid policy on "non-British immigration" as such but here's the most recent manifesto quote (from the European election of 2009):

We recognise the invaluable contribution that migration has made to Europe, socially, culturally and economically over many years, and believe that this positive contribution will continue in future. Migration is a natural process in human life and it is in all our interests for the EU to deal with this as effectively and efficiently as possible. Equally, we recognise the potential shared benefits of greater co-operation in asylum and immigration at EU level, and the important role that Europe could play in assisting the integration of new migrants including in the languages of the stateless nations. We believe that we share a duty to uphold and defend people's right to seek asylum and we will work to ensure Europe's proud tradition of offering refuge to the persecuted continues.

phildwyer said:
With regard to Lewis's anti-semitism, there is this notorious quote:

"In 1936, in the midst of the turmoil of Tân yn Llŷn, Lewis praised Adolf Hitler when he said "At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunders_Lewis

However, in the context of the 1930s, that was hardly the most egregious form of anti-semitism. Lewis did support Franco and Action Francaise, but I take it that few members of Plaid today are great admirers of him anyway, except as a symbol/figurehead. Am I right?

I followed the link and this is attributed to a speech by anti-Welsh Labour MP Llew Smith, so there's no real proof or even context. But I wouldn't defend him. The musings of Saunders Lewis 70 years ago are irrelevant to Wales today.

phildwyer said:
And I admit that my evidence for Plaid's preferential treatment of Welsh-speakers is anecdotal--but then it would be, wouldn't it, as they're hardly going to shout it from the rooftops. Are you telling me that English-speakers will be treated equally in education, government, media, the professions etc in a Plaid-ruled Wales?

Ah, the hardy perennial of Plaid having a secret conspiracy to force everybody to learn Welsh (usually known as "forcing the language down our throats"). There's no doubt that Plaid has traditionally been seen as the party of the Welsh language and enjoys higher support amongst Welsh speakers but I think that's changed over the past few decades. Plaid rules Gwynedd, where the internal language of the council is officially Welsh (the only one in Wales) and where non-Welsh speaking staff are given time to learn the language. That's hardly a secret. Caerffili council is also run by Plaid and led by a non-Welsh speaking council leader in Lindsay Whittle - so it's horses for courses. A bilingual Wales - where both languages enjoy equal status - would be an aspiration but that's going to take generations even with the right government and policies in place.
The biggest problem for me, as a parent of two kids in Welsh schools where 90% of the kids come from English-speaking homes, is that the opportunities for kids to speak the language outside the school environment are very limited. Consequently my 13 yr old thinks everyone in the world should speak English (the language of films, games, music and labels). You can take a horse to water... :(

phildwyer said:
Finally, what is Plaid's current position on independence? That is, obviously they favor it, but when and how?

Yes, for independence but who the hell knows what the next year will bring. It will only happen if people want it. Getting thinking progressives to vote Plaid next time is a small step... ;)
 
Llion - D J Davies was one of the six founding members. A miner, he had been a trade union activist in Wales, the USA and later got very involved in the cooperative movement in Denmark.
He argued that the mines should be taken over by the workers and not be nationalised as Labour advocated - a fundamental difference between libertarian and state socialisms.
 
Plaid rules Gwynedd, where the internal language of the council is officially Welsh (the only one in Wales) and where non-Welsh speaking staff are given time to learn the language.

See, this is why I won't vote for them. I don't want to learn Welsh. If anyone told me I had to learn Welsh in order to work in Wales, I'd see it as a violation of my civil liberties.

And I, like the 80% of Welsh people who don't speak Welsh, am every bit as patriotic as Plaid. They can fuck off with their "given time to learn Welsh."
 
Llion - D J Davies was one of the six founding members. A miner, he had been a trade union activist in Wales, the USA and later got very involved in the cooperative movement in Denmark.
He argued that the mines should be taken over by the workers and not be nationalised as Labour advocated - a fundamental difference between libertarian and state socialisms.

He was also a very successful boxer!
 
See, this is why I won't vote for them. I don't want to learn Welsh. If anyone told me I had to learn Welsh in order to work in Wales, I'd see it as a violation of my civil liberties.

And I, like the 80% of Welsh people who don't speak Welsh, am every bit as patriotic as Plaid. They can fuck off with their "given time to learn Welsh."

Plaid has never said that! Several of their Assembly Members don't speak Welsh including one of their cabinet Ministers Jocelyn Davies, the number would be even higher if they got more AMs in traditional "Labour" areas and Valleys seats. Really, both languages are equal.

Leanne Wood one of Plaid's most high-profile politicians does not speak Welsh and comes from a Valleys socialist background, but fully supports the language and campaigns for it.

Plaid is currently jointly running Wales and they haven't forced anyone to learn Welsh. If you live in Gwynedd and don't speak the majority language then of course there's an issue there, how can you take part in society?

With you I'm pretty sure we're talking about south Wales/Cardiff, where there is no such issue. You could be a Plaid Assembly Member, leader of a council, MP or whatever and not have to speak Welsh if you don't want to. The Welsh language belongs to everyone even those who do not speak it.

With regards to immigration, we should judge Plaid on what they do. Now, they were part of the campaign to defend Ama Sumani, alongside the anarchists, and stop her being deported, and also for the Azerbaijani poet whose campaign received alot of support from this forum. Adam Price also fought against the deportation of a family from his Carmarthen East constituency, successfully. Considering it is a mainstream party focused on winning elections, Plaid's record on internationalism puts the other 'big' parties to shame. I would go even further to argue that support for ethnic minorities forms a crucial part of Plaid's modern philosophy.

I think this discussion is missing an important point though, that Plaid Cymru is to some extent involved now in the Welsh establishment and is a mainstream political party, signed up to all the imperfections and compromises that come with running local authorities and being in coalitions, similar to the Greens and the SNP. But at the same time, Plaid is the only mainstream player in Wales that is 100% democratically controlled by its members and not funded by or in the pocket of big business or outside interests.
 
Llion - D J Davies was one of the six founding members. A miner, he had been a trade union activist in Wales, the USA and later got very involved in the cooperative movement in Denmark.
He argued that the mines should be taken over by the workers and not be nationalised as Labour advocated - a fundamental difference between libertarian and state socialisms.
That doesn't mean he was an anarchist or a syndicalist though, never mind an anarcho-syndicalist. The idea of socialism necessarily meaning total state control only won its dominant postion after WW2. If the wiki article is in any way accurate his politics were clearly state-interventionist anyway - a proponent of classic old school keynsianism.
 
If you live in Gwynedd and don't speak the majority language then of course there's an issue there, how can you take part in society?

But I could say the same about Cardiff: "If you want to participate in civil society there, you must speak the majority language, which is English."

But I don't say that. I'm happy for civil society to be bilingual. Unfortunately, Plaid don't extend the same courtesy in Gwynedd.

My suspicion is that if they ever gain real, consolidated power in Wales as a whole, they will extend this policy nationwide. Anyone who wants to participate in civil society or the professions will have to speak Welsh, or will be "given time to learn it." Monoglot anglophones will be second-class citizens.
 
How do you think Plaid could possibly gain or consolidate 'real' power in Wales if they wanted to extend the language over everyone?

Don't you think your view is paranoid? Plaid would be alienating sections of its own party and support. They're geared towards winning the support of English-only speakers accoridng to their latest party broadcast (costing a huge amount of money by the look of things), why they would deliberately undermine their own work is beyond me.
 
How do you think Plaid could possibly gain or consolidate 'real' power in Wales if they wanted to extend the language over everyone?

I don't think they can.

And the reason is precisely because a lot of people share my suspicions about their intentions regarding the language. If they can convince anglophones like myself that we'd be treated equally in a Plaid-ruled Cymru, many (more) of us will vote for them. But given their history, and also given their current policy in places like Gwynedd, they've got a long way to go.
 
But I could say the same about Cardiff: "If you want to participate in civil society there, you must speak the majority language, which is English."

But I don't say that. I'm happy for civil society to be bilingual. Unfortunately, Plaid don't extend the same courtesy in Gwynedd.

My suspicion is that if they ever gain real, consolidated power in Wales as a whole, they will extend this policy nationwide. Anyone who wants to participate in civil society or the professions will have to speak Welsh, or will be "given time to learn it." Monoglot anglophones will be second-class citizens.

The difference is that every Welsh speaker HAS to speak English when dealing with vast swathes of the public sector now - we have no choice in the matter. If you are an English speaker in Gwynedd you get treated just the same way as a Welsh speaker - that's equality.

You choose not to learn Welsh, which is up to you, and that excludes you from a small minority of jobs - e.g. teaching Welsh, reading the news, working in bilingual call centres and other jobs where the language is deemed essential.

So there's no need to go off on one and construct a huge conspiracy based around one council's decision to use Welsh as its primary means of internal communication.
 
Best thing about Blackwood was seeing a gig there where don ross (i think?) was crackin jokes in the wee theatre old miner's institute place and was all "ahhh... we thought we were playing a Chinese takeaway at first, 'd' missing off the sign yaknow!"

:D Well, it was funny at the time. Very offtopic, probably not as funny as being packed off to jug for making can bombs man.

Dual language is pretty cool btw, don't think in most of S. Wales you can really say there's "discrimination" against English speakers or those lacking in Welsh skillz :rolleyes:
 
yes but i reckon if it was a muslim more would be made of it and for example it would be the main story on the bbc Wales news website with a pic rather than one of the links on the right hand side.
also it was on the news for one evening, not 2/3/4 evenings

dodge

case in point
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8415451.stm

the man is being charged, yes it has been on the news but in a very brief way.
if this was a non white extremist there would have been more fuss and more news. it is not even the main story on the bbc Wales news page.

bbc said:
A 58-year-old man from south Wales is to appear in court charged with soliciting murder and offences under the Terrorism Act, say police.

He was arrested in Hirwaun, Rhondda Cynon Taf, last week and taken to west Yorkshire for questioning.

He also faces a charge of using threatening abusive or insulting words likely to stir up racial hatred.

so another screw loose sicko racist
 
case in point
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8415451.stm

the man is being charged, yes it has been on the news but in a very brief way.
if this was a non white extremist there would have been more fuss and more news. it is not even the main story on the bbc Wales news page.



so another screw loose sicko racist

I work with a boy from Hirwaun, apparently he (the guy arrested, not my mate) is well known as being a BNP member.... I hasten to add, I have no proof of this
 
Why the fuck was he taken to West Yorkshire? Can South Wales Police not think of any interesting questions to ask him themselves??
 
Well, is it known if he's been nicked for the fuss they stirred up in Swansea, or else why has this bloke been shipped off to West Yorkshire? Curious like.
 
Basically I think that nationalism in general is inherently susceptible to co-option by the right, and I do believe that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP in England often gravitate to PC in Wales....
Thats a load of total bullshit-BNPers tend to be total rightwing morons and english nationalists thered be no way theyd gravitate to Plaid Cymru
 
Thats a load of total bullshit-BNPers tend to be total rightwing morons and english nationalists thered be no way theyd gravitate to Plaid Cymru

I have to agree. Looking at the voting patterns I'd say that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP (& UKIP) in England often gravitate to the BNP (& UKIP) in Wales as well!

Niclas - Out of interest, which one of Plaid Cymru's founders was an anarcho-syndiacalist? Did he write anything about anarcho-syndicalism, as I'd be very interested to read it if so? I know there was a pamphlet about Anarchism written in Welsh in the 1940s as part of the 'Cyfres Pamffledi Heddychwyr Cymru' (Welsh Pacifists Leaftlets Series) which I've never been able to track down a copy of one (it's called Anarchistiaeth by J.Gwyn Griffiths).

I have a copy of that, pm me and and I'll get you a copy. YOu might find some of the articles here of interest too: http://anarchol.wordpress.com
 
Interesting.

I wonder if we can get a statistic for the number of people arrested in Wales under offences related to the Terrorism Act, and then an ethnic breakdown?

And whether we can get a similar stat on convictions (if there have ever even been any?) and an ethnic breakdown on those.

It might even be that white British people would be the biggest alleged "terrorists" in Wales.
 
BBC also quote the judge as saying he was a member of a far-right organisation. I take it that's the BNP.

Any hack going to ask Griffin about his members' extra-curricular activities?

PS Phil Dwyer's comments about BNP voters gravitating towards Plaid are just a joke.
 
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