It is true in part.
Blackwood man faces terrorism charges
- Thread starter niclas
- Start date
It is true in part.
fogbat
The Talibum
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I said "might".
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
'They' (Valleys peeps) had a chance to turn to them a few months ago when the BNP was on every single ballot paper in Wales. They didn't. Disaffected people are more likely to not vote at all, or to vote for a different party.
I do agree with Phil but not as solidly, I think the BNP could increase their support in the Valleys but they probably wouldn't be able to win a seat there ever. People who are so racist that it infringes on their political choices will not bother voting, especially in areas with high levels of deprivation.
The idea that the Valleys are some kind of racist backwater should also be challenged, they've had migration for years, be it Italians, other Europeans, or Asians. The various communities across the Valleys have spawned some very progressive political tendencies and currents, not just in the industrial period but more recently.
I think we (sane people of all political persuasions) are doing a good job of keeping out the BNP in Wales, their main momentum does not come from political factors here it comes from Welsh people reading The Sun and British newspapers every day which have no bearing on their daily lives and the reality of life here. If you only read the British newspapers you'd have no idea that Wales even had an Assembly or its own ministers and you'd be under the impression that foreigners are streaming in. The British media's dominance in Wales- unseen in Scotland- creates a right-wing false consciousness amongst alot of working class people.
Aye.
It's also worth noting that Cardiff has always been a multi-racial city, and that despite one or two minor hiccups, the longevity of its immigrant communities has largely spared it the kind of overt racial tension to be found in the cities of England. Until they were dispersed by the Bay development, the people of Butetown offered a model of successful multiculturalism unmatched throughout the UK.
Well, sort of. Cardiff has always (as a city) had a multi-racial dimension but for a long time that was largely confined to just Butetown. Butetown, itself, has always been a model of multiculturalism. But that can't be said of the whole of Cardiff. Above and below the bridge was a strong dividing line.
Also worth noting that the dispersal of the Butetown community was partial, not total.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Really Grandma, this isn't very constructive even by your standards. Can you not have a sensible discussion for a change?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
That doesn't explain the growth of the BNP in northern towns that are considered to be deprived areas.
I would agree that the valleys are not some sort of racist backwater-but racist attitudes are prevelant-although I would accept thats my own experiences. I do however reject that migration has occurred on a large scale into the valleys. Cardiff and newport are a totally different matter but the valleys have not seen large scale migration and established migrant communities in my lifetime and experience.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Ive got two options-block you but then I miss out on the debate. So I've chosen to ignore you this way until you give up trolling.
Post 1238
How am I trolling? I've argued against you in an intelligent and relevant manner. It's just boring and pathetic to repeat yourself all the time like this. I wouldn't even mind a lively exchange of abuse, but this is so tedious and unproductive. Can't you move on, for the sake of others here if not for mine?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Phil you're whole existance is about winding people up. Stop quoting me and simply put you wont get the same tedious and unproductive answer-can't be any fairer than that.
Post 1238
No. I'll respond to you if I feel like it.
You're perfectly free to ignore me. But just to repeat yourself over and over like this will destroy this thread and bore everyone to tears, as well as making yourself seem petty and ridiculous. Seriously, just give it up man.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Just don't respond. Ignore me. You don't have to put me on ignore, if you're worried about missing the debate. Just ignore me. If you keep on doing this, all you'll achieve is wrecking every single thread you appear on. Won't that be jolly fun?
Give it up Grandma--now.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Great idea.
Finally.
Now make absolutely sure that you stick with this new-found resolve. I'll be watching.
Clint Iguana
not an undercover cop
THIS (have not sussed how to do upward pointing arrows
)I have spotted Nothing troll like in your responses, far more intersting than personal abuse.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
THIS (have not sussed how to do upward pointing arrows
I have spotted Nothing troll like in your responses, far more intersting than personal abuse.
shif + 6 ^^^^
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Maybe in the strongly Welsh-identifying Valleys a 'British' party is not going to have the same purchase as in northern England. Also there is an alternative to Labour in the Valleys in Plaid Cymru.
Shame the rest of this thread has been tarnished somewhat. It was a worthy discussion.
Unfortunately, Plaid can attract the kind of nationalists who would gravitate towards the BNP in England. Their history is tarnished by racism too. It's a real shame, because I know several committed socialists who are PC members, but for me (and I suspect many others) they've sailed too close to the right-wing wind.
Clint Iguana
not an undercover cop
Can't let you get away with that kind of smear, sorry. One of Plaid's founders - Saunders lewis - was a dodgy cultural nationalist but equally another one was an anarcho-syndicalist. Ambrose Bebb in the 1930s also had a very suspect affinity to the French rightwing of the time. Are you saying they were racist?
That was back when Plaid was a pressure group and still developing any coherent ideology.
For the past 20+ years it's been an avowed left-wing party where the "right wing" would be on the left of the Labour Party. It's far from perfect (shall I prepare a list of let Adamski butt in?
) but it's a party that's been consistently progressive and is home to a growing number of socialists in Wales, myself included.So tell us what "right-wing wind" is Plaid currently sailing too close to.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
I have to say I've never considered PC to sail anywhere near racism but thats my own experiences of what I know of them.
Can't let you get away with that kind of smear, sorry. One of Plaid's founders - Saunders lewis - was a dodgy cultural nationalist but equally another one was an anarcho-syndicalist. Ambrose Bebb in the 1930s also had a very suspect affinity to the French rightwing of the time. Are you saying they were racist?
That was back when Plaid was a pressure group and still developing any coherent ideology.
For the past 20+ years it's been an avowed left-wing party where the "right wing" would be on the left of the Labour Party. It's far from perfect (shall I prepare a list of let Adamski butt in?
So tell us what "right-wing wind" is Plaid currently sailing too close to.
As I said, I'm aware that there are many socialists in PC. Though exactly how deep their socialism runs is not at all clear to me--the example of the former soi-disant Marxist Dafydd Ellis-Thomas looms large. Every day when he wakes up he thanks the Welsh he's "Lord."
Basically I think that nationalism in general is inherently susceptible to co-option by the right, and I do believe that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP in England often gravitate to PC in Wales. "Cultural nationalist" is a very kind term for Saunders Lewis--some would call him a fascist (and he was English anyway). And I also find their concentration on the language to be elitist, seeing as it is the language of a small minority. Plaid is still the party of the crachach as far as I'm concerned.
OK, fire away...
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I'm at a loss as to why anti-immigration voters ('people who are attracted to the BNP') would gravitate to Plaid Cymru, when Plaid's immigration policy is practically open borders. Unless of course, you mean anti-English immigration, but I don't think they would be attracted to the BNP, which after all as a 'British' party does not recognise Wales as separate from England.
I think you are just making a schoolboy error because of the word 'nationalist'.
I'm an activist for Plaid and not aware that they concentrate on the language at all. They are a bilingual party, treating both languages equally. It is an honourable position.
There's an issue here because we can't let ignorant people make these kind of claims about racism, when Plaid is part of the anti-racist movement in Wales.
Nationalism depends entirely on the character of the nation or constituency that it represents. I don't think nationalism in South Africa, Cuba, Mozambique or India was/is of the right. I don't think Mandela, Ghandi or Malcolm X were right-wingers at all.
More comparably to Wales, nationalism in Catalunya, Scotland and the Basque country is generally progressive and linked with some degree of social democratic aims or even explict socialism. In Catalunya for example pretty much the entirety of the left supports independence and Catalan nationalism. That's important because like Wales it has a linguistic dimension. If you're a Catalan socialist and you advocate keeping them in with Spain, you would never get as far as if you advocate independence or fuller self-rule. In the Basque country its a little bit different as the centre-right establishment is nationalist, but the radical far-left in Euskadi and its Communist Party is also extremely nationalist.
I see myself as a left nationalist, the two causes for me are inseperable- we are not going to get the kind of society I want to see as part of the UK. Devolution means to be different, and I can think of many good things about being different to the way politics is run in Westminster.
There's no other party like Plaid that is so popular and established but also contains a prominent number of socialists and leftists. Even the right of the party, is social democratic.
You make some sound points. To be honest, I've been coming closer to your position over the last few years, and may well end up voting for Plaid soon.
However: (a) I'm still suspicious of nationalism per se. I'm an internationalist. (b) I don't think you can discard the dodgy history of Plaid so easily. Lewis may not have been a racist, but he was certainly an anti-semite. (c) I disagree that they treat both languages equally. I find that they favor Welsh, and Welsh-speakers. I suspect that they want everyone to speak Welsh, and that given the chance that would be their policy.
Having said all that, I think they're the best choice for Wales at the moment. The best of a very, very, very bad lot.
However: (a) I'm still suspicious of nationalism per se. I'm an internationalist. (b) I don't think you can discard the dodgy history of Plaid so easily. Lewis may not have been a racist, but he was certainly an anti-semite. (c) I disagree that they treat both languages equally. I find that they favor Welsh, and Welsh-speakers. I suspect that they want everyone to speak Welsh, and that given the chance that would be their policy.
Having said all that, I think they're the best choice for Wales at the moment. The best of a very, very, very bad lot.
Phil - the Plaid you talk of is not the party I recognise but there's obviously some deeply felt views here.
I doubt this thread is the place to tease them out, but I'd like to try to answer your a, b and c.
Firstly, the civic nationalism of Plaid is entirely compatible with the internationalism of progressive campaigners - this is not an exclusivist identity but a liberation issue.
b. Saunders Lewis wasn't an anti-semite as far as I know - he wrote a very powerful play outlining the persecution of the Jewish people called Esther. You've got to substantiate these claims if they're going to be taken seriously
c. Plaid is criticised by some Welsh-language activists for not doing enough for the language, by some English speakers for doing too much. That tells me something. The principle of equality of opportunity is an important one, e.g. the right to have your kids educated in Welsh, to have services in Welsh if you choose. If Plaid doesn't fight for these things, no other political party will. Plaid's linkage to the language struggle (and it has been a struggle) has harmed it politically, but it has also helped define it as a party not afraid of direct action, law-breaking and defying the establishment. I don't want everyone to have to speak Welsh - but I do want everyone to have the opportunity should they choose it. Very different things.
As you say, this might not be the right thread, but since the topic has come up, let me respond briefly.
We've been through all this before, and each time I find myself less and less convinced of my previous positions. But I'm still not convinced of yours either. Then again, you know more about Plaid than I do, so please treat these musings as inquiries rather than assertions.
Yes, Plaid's nationalism is liberationist rather than exclusivist. It is still nationalism, however. In one of your previous posts (I think it was you), you mentioned Plaid's policy on non-British immigration to Wales, indicating that they're in favor of it. If that's true, then I'm convinced. Is it?
With regard to Lewis's anti-semitism, there is this notorious quote:
"In 1936, in the midst of the turmoil of Tân yn Llŷn, Lewis praised Adolf Hitler when he said "At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunders_Lewis
However, in the context of the 1930s, that was hardly the most egregious form of anti-semitism. Lewis did support Franco and Action Francaise, but I take it that few members of Plaid today are great admirers of him anyway, except as a symbol/figurehead. Am I right?
And I admit that my evidence for Plaid's preferential treatment of Welsh-speakers is anecdotal--but then it would be, wouldn't it, as they're hardly going to shout it from the rooftops. Are you telling me that English-speakers will be treated equally in education, government, media, the professions etc in a Plaid-ruled Wales?
Finally, what is Plaid's current position on independence? That is, obviously they favor it, but when and how?
I haven't voted in a British election for over a decade, but I might just make an exception for PC in future...
